21 - Elvish Assassins

Feedback for the mainline single-player campaign Legend of Wesmere.

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fabi
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21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by fabi »

This is the feedback thread for scenario 21 - Elvish Assassins
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taptap
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by taptap »

This scenario isn't necessary at all. Kalenz can run away with only a single enemy unit ever able to hit him. I would change this to dialog. There is however no thread for Northern Battle.
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Ninjuri
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Ninjuri »

1.10.2 Easy mode

I spammed a bunch of archers due to their increased defense in forests compared to fighters, which is an advantage i could capitalize on since i was facing elves. Blue guy's betrayal was a bit of a shock, but i did notice something was up when i checked the status table, and the two allies had different starting gold and incomes, also one of them was just called "West"... or was it "East"... It was some direction, i'm not sure if this was intentional or not. Anyway i lined my forces up against the fjord cutting through the forest to try to force the enemies into it, further limiting their terrain defense. That maybe lasted like 2 turns before everyone died. Luckily, in the fighting, i was able to sneak kelenz, followed by cleo, under the black base and to the sign post, circumventing the battle.
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letsdance
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by letsdance »

taptap wrote:This scenario isn't necessary at all. Kalenz can run away with only a single enemy unit ever able to hit him. I would change this to dialog.
i second this. either make it non-trivial or could just remove it.
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Maiklas3000
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Maiklas3000 »

2 difficulty (could lose if you try), 1 fun.
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Inky
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Inky »

Agree with above posts: this scenario is just a cutscene; all you do is move Kalenz a couple of times.
There is no point to recruit here, just wastes your gold/time.

P.S. Scenario 22 needs a feedback thread.
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Caladbolg »

Council Ruling (story-only) is good but the elves in the council seem highly irrational. Elvish Assassins is trivial if you just go straight for the signpost. Both difficulty and fun are about 1. When the S leader went out of his keep I tried to kill him with Landar to get rid of him just in case something unexpected happens. He was left one hit from death so I killed him with a scout, getting him some xp. The ally turning on you is... well, I'm not sure how to feel about that. As mentined before, this scenario should either be made harder or merged with the previous story-only scenario. Replay isn't necessary here.

As there's no thread for the Northern Battle, I'll post it here, not to clutter the next thread.
(1) Level, version, and gold? 1.12.5, medium, 342 gold.
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 4. Not much trouble but not trivial either. I think the difficulty should be increased though.
(3) Objectives? Clear. There are slight issues with the note that appears at the beginning, saying that "Kalenz can only recall shamans and their advancements from his former army": Kalenz can still recall scouts and their advancements. Besides, it's actually Cleodil that can recall shamans.
(4) Dialog and storyline? Alright.
(5) Challenges? If Landar's units don't disperse well and instead focus on some particular bunch of player's units, they can put a lot of pressure and be hard to deal with (due to high numbers, hp and dmg potential).
(6) Fun? (1-10) 8. Landar has high level units (a lot of them) and the map is big so the battle feels larger than it actually is. At the same time, it is relatively easy. As Landar spreads his troops, the battlefront becomes very wide, providing a lot of space to play around with formations and break down the battle into several smaller skirmishes. It provides enough opportunities to systematically crush the enemy (especially if you have sylphs). I quite like this scenario.
(7) Changes?
1) Make the non-Landar enemy leader more difficult to take down (currently he can fall on the 2nd turn with a bit of luck). This could be done by slightly moving his keep north so that it takes a bit longer to reach him and/or slightly enlarging his keep to make the recruitment-blocking strategy more difficult to pull off.
2) Expand Landar's keep slightly so that his recruits block off the path to him (currently an outrider can reach him on the 3rd turn, making this scenario trivial)
3) As an alternative to 2, surround his keep with a small ring of forest and make it so that when a unit approaches, rangers/avengers pop out of the forest. Having avengers would be in line with his mindset of taking revenge on those who have harmed the interests of the elves.
4) Make Landar's troops slightly more defensive so that reaching him is not as easy (maybe switching to defense mode when player's units come close?)
5) Add another leader in the NE. This would put more pressure on Uradredia and make the scenario harder. Currently Uradredia's troops do almost nothing useful.
6) Add rangers to Landar's recruit list. This would make the scenario harder and it'd make sense that he's trying to assassinate Uradredia.

Strategy: 1st enemy will be taken done by the tried and true strategy of "fill his castle hexes with units so he can't recruit", with an outrider taking one space from the get-go and the remaining start units going N immediately. Kalenz recalls one scout and Cleodil recalls a bunch of lvl2 shamans. On the 2nd turn a few enemy units are taken down and half of the castle hexes are stolen. A sylph and a shyde bring the enemy leader to the brink of death and slow him down. Unit placement and slowing ensure that my units will survive. 3rd turn, rider scout kills the leader and becomes a rider. 4th turn, enemy units defeated, Cleodil takes the keep, recalling shamans and woses. Bracing for contact with Landar's sharpshooters.

Turn 5, druid->shyde and Cleodil recalls a shyde and a sylph. From there, most of the army will go straight west towards Landar, with a smaller group crossing the river north and then going west, to draw some of the enemy units away from going north. A few units gather villages on the far north. Turn 7, druid->shyde. Woses go onto the plains as a lure. As Landar's higher level units are putting more pressure on the northern group, most of my units eventually end up north of the river. Sylphs weaken high level units so that my lower levels can get the kills. Higher levels that can't be killed are slowed instead. Turn 8, sorceress-> enchantress. Uradredia's army finally decides to be more proactive.

Turn 9, 2 elves on the south refuse to be killed. Turn 10, southern units defeated, proceeding towards Landar. Northern group starts going onto the western plains. Turn 11, most western units defeated, Uradredia's army has nothing to do. Turn 12, Druid->Shyde. Landar left with only 4 units. Turn 13, Elder wose-> Ancient wose. Landar reached (if I knew that this would end the scenario, I would've mooched xp some more).

Stats: 342 start gold, 13/36 turns, 54 end gold, 33/39 villages, 22 units, 31 income, 0 recruits, 15 recalls, 6 advancements, 1 loss (a shaman), 31 kills, -6% dmg dealt, +15% dmg received. 798 carryover.

Bad luck. However, dmg dealt (1261/1349) compared to dmg received (692/601) suggests that I pulled it off quite well. Throughout the battle all my units (except level 1s) were well protected and not in any notable risk. A really good run all in all.
The low number of turns taken and units lost (even Uradredia lost only 2 lvl 1s) compared to enemies' losses (which include high level units) suggests that this scenario really is easy and should probably be made more difficult considering its position in the campaign.
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devavrata
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by devavrata »

No form for this scenario, so I copied the one from a previous scenario and changed the name and number:
Content Feedback wrote:The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 21 - Elvish Assassins:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy/Medium, Battle for Wesnoth 1.10.7 Hard.
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 if choose to flee, 8 if you choose to fight.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Unclear. You don't need to reach the post in order to finish the scenario - it is possible to finish also by killing all enemy leaders. Yes, even on hard. Aaand... another scenario of the type "You must flee, the enemy is overwhelming" where you can be the overwhelming one.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
No challenges at all if you choose to flee, quite challenging if you choose to fight.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1 if you choos to flee, 7 if you choose to fight.
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Of course, making it more difficult to reach the post.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
-
gfgtdf
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by gfgtdf »

I wonder whther there is a particular reason why you are playing this in wesnoth 1.10 instead of 1.12 ?
Scenario with Robots SP scenario (1.11/1.12), allows you to build your units with components, PYR No preperation turn 1.12 mp-mod that allows you to select your units immideately after the game begins.
devavrata
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by devavrata »

gfgtdf wrote:I wonder whther there is a particular reason why you are playing this in wesnoth 1.10 instead of 1.12 ?
I'm using GNU/Linux Trisquel 7.0, for which the upstream is Ubuntu 14.04. Icedove (Thunderbird) is 38.8, Abrowser (Firefox) is 50.1, and so on.
devavrata
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by devavrata »

Currently the scenario 22, Northern Battle, has no topic open for V1.9/1.10. The only topics for it are the topics "V1.7/1.8 - 22 - Northern Battle" and "V1.5/1.6 - Scenario Review: LoW 22 - Northern Battle", which are locked. I am not allowed to open a new topic, so I am just posting the Feedback for scenario 22 at the scenario 21 topic.
Content Feedback wrote:The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 22 - Northern battle

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Battle for Wesnoth 1.8.3, Easy/Medium, Battle for Wesnoth 1.10.7 Hard.
Content Feedback wrote:(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1 if you just land a unit (like your rider) next to Landar in order to finish early and win a big bonus.
6 if you choose to fight instead - not so difficult, really.
Content Feedback wrote:(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear, though as described in other commentaries in fact it suffices to land a unit next to Landar to end the scenario early with a big finish bonus.
Content Feedback wrote:(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear
Content Feedback wrote:(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
First, beating the closest keep of enemies before Landar's units close in. Second, try to keep the edge of the forest so your units fight with terrain advantage and Landar's units don't. Third, when your ally has already taken the burden of the battle and cleaned up most of the enemy units, get out of the forest and clean the plains of enemy units.
Content Feedback wrote:(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
Content Feedback wrote:(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I think it is already balanced as it is.
Content Feedback wrote:(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
-
SanDonk
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Re: V1.9/1.10 - 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by SanDonk »

Difficulty: 1
Fun: 1

Finished in three turns in three minutes. Just moved Kalenz three times, no unit was able to even attack him. Didn´t understand its point.

My points:
- Place Kalenz to a fortress at the begining to let him recruit one bunch of units without time penalty.
- Move the signpost closer to enemy castle/move enemy castle closer to the signapost to assure great fight for the free pass.
- Let enemy recruit 2lvl to make him really overwhelming and make the fight really great.
Hestelvar
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Re: 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Hestelvar »

Since there is no feedback thread for Northern Battle I'm giving my feedback below. Hint: I hope the lack of a feedback thread is a sign Nothern Battle will soon be removed.

21 - Elvish Assassins
(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.14.5
Solider (Easy)
Starting Gold 160
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. Just run to the signpost. Or 4 Defeat all Enemies.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The victory condition is “Kalenz reaches the signpost”, yet defeating all enemy leaders also results in instant victory.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialogue and storyline of the scenario?
Mostly clear and enjoyable.
But i think "Kalenz begins this scenario in retirement, and is not able to recall his veteran troops." Suggests that Cleodil can still recall veterans, this could use clarification. If the player hangs around for the betrayal, instead of running to the signpost as instructed, it is a clever surprise that makes palpable the growing corruption of the elves.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6. To defeat all Enemies. Just moving to the signpost is rather dull.
(7) What, if any, are the changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it harder to escape before the betrayal.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No. I replayed only to enjoy all the dialogue.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/a
Remarks:
Since the southern leader moves to a village on the first turn this makes assassination easy.
Crintil reappears in the next scenario even if he dies here.
I think veterans recruited in this scenario should be available in the next.

22 - Northern Battle
(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.14.5
Solider (Easy)
Starting Gold 130
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3. Easy.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Good. But if I’d known Landar would flee if attacked I could have finished earlier.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialogue and storyline of the scenario?
Minimal but unmistakable. No story-line just a fight.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I can’t think of any. The timorous behaviour of the ally wasn’t helpful, but that just meant more experience for me.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. A short easy battle, no story, half the map unexplored, an almost passive ally. Completely unmemorable.
(7) What, if any, are the changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Hint that Lander hasn’t mustered his full force and must retreat if the battle turns against him. Better still remove Lander from the scenario altogether.
If Crintil dies in the last scenario he can’t be in this. If Crintil must be in this scenario he must be impossible to kill in the last. Pick one. I’ve just dispatched him twice in quick succession.
A radical option is to remove this scenario entirely. Enlarge the last scenario, more villages, more enemies, allow Cleodil to recall. I’m imagining something like The Uprooting but with an objective of defeating all enemy leaders.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/a.
Remarks:
This scenario has an identity problem. It exists because the player cannot emerge from the last scenario with enough gold for an epic finale. Nothing crucial or decisive is gained or learned. The rest of LoW is well plotted and deserves a better penultimate scenario.
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Konrad2
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Re: 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.6, High Lord (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1, I could pretty much just walk away.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None,

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

3, it's barely a scenario and more like a story scene.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

No reason for statistics here.
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Zrevnur
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Re: 21 - Elvish Assassins

Post by Zrevnur »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Wesnoth 1.14.11, High Lord (Challenging), no reloading during campaign, played scenario at least once
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
No idea. I dont think this is a proper scenario.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Deceiving the player is bad. Blue switching sides is potentially fatal and totally unfair.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Neither clear nor interesting - Elves dont seem to behave in a properly consistent manner - it seems to be more like what the scripter wants it to make the story "surprising" or "interesting". More specific: Elves seem to behave very human-like (like humans behave in Wesnoth - not necessarily like humans behave in RL) here - why even have 'elves' if its just humans with other gfx?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None. Either I have played it before (dont remember) or got lucky to not get killed by blue.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
You either know the betrayal or get lucky or lose.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.
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