V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

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V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Content Feedback »

The Legend of Wesmere, scenario 7 - Elves' Last Stand:

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
Smurphy
Posts: 2
Joined: December 8th, 2009, 11:26 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Smurphy »

I'm relatively new to the game and have a bunch of questions about this campaign mission. I've completed a few of the beginner campaigns on the standard difficulty and this campaign is my first attempt at an Intermediate.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
I'm on the standard, normal, medium difficulty. 1.7.9-1.8beta2

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Long story of what happened:
I first started this mission with the minimum amount of gold: 100. It was clear after a few turns that 100 gold was not going to lead me to victory. Also, I tried giving my two allies some instructions/orders and whatever they were doing was nowhere near what I had in mind. I attempted to get Galtrid, who started on the central Island, to merely hold the central Island. I restarted the game a few times giving him different orders of defend, hold this ground, etc. and couldn't figure out a way to get him to keep most of his troops on the island. He always sent a solid portion of his army over the southern walls to their prompt demise.

So I came to these forums and found this thread and saw a few people said it was easy and one person mentioned all the gold. The last few missions I had some fun at the expense of strategy... and my coffers. I started the mission previous to this one (Acquaintance in Need) with 1300-1400 gold. I promptly blew it all, charged maniacally, failed, regrouped and barely finished that mission. After paying the Dwarves 400 gold (which I didn't have) I was on to this mission (Elves' Last Stand) with the minimum 100 gold. I decided to redo "Acquaintance in Need" and not charge maniacally. With my limited skill I was able to pull through and bring in 400 gold to this mission. I reread this thread once again and think I saw someone mention that he was able to get both of his allies to attack the southernmost Orc position. I decided to give that a try.

On turn 1 I told both of my allies to go into "Defensive" mode and "Attack Grubr" (the Orc at the bottom middle of the map). Both sent riders on Turn 2 at Grubr. Galtrid's non-Druids and Sorceresses attacked a few turns later. After they all died Galtrid sent in the Druids and Sorceresses alone. El'Isomithir sent all of his non-Rider troops north. After 4 turns of his troops being massacred in the wrong direction I right clicked on the Great Tree on the central island and clicked "Ask El'Isomithir to move here."

I will never doubt El'Isomithir's courage.
He bravely charged, alone, at Grubr's camp.

Image
That is turn 6 or 7. Inside the square where my screen was located is a yellow circle with a green dot in the middle. That's El'Isomithir. To the northwest there is a line of green troops against a black and purple line. That's El'Isomithir's troops. Link to screenshot.

I've got lots of questions.
1. How can I can get allies to not throw away all their troops by turn 10?
2. If I cannot do that, how can I get my allies to survive to turn 10 without sending a large portion of my own forces to protect them?
3. Have people done this mission with the minimum 100 gold?
fabi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by fabi »

Smurphy wrote:I'm relatively new to the game and have a bunch of questions about this campaign mission. I've completed a few of the beginner campaigns on the standard difficulty and this campaign is my first attempt at an Intermediate.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
I'm on the standard, normal, medium difficulty. 1.7.9-1.8beta2
Thank you for your feedback.
The Legend of Wesmere has been under heavy development during the 1.7.x phase with the help of many developers.
That means also that it's not balanced well at the moment.
So I can't warrant that the campaign is at intermediate difficult level during the whole campaign.
Maybe the campaign isn't the right choice if you seek for a learning campaign.
It's always a got idea to play the latest available version, maybe even svn if you manage to obtain it.
Since wesnoth is in feature freeze now I try to obtain savegame compatibility to future versions.

Long story of what happened:
I first started this mission with the minimum amount of gold: 100. It was clear after a few turns that 100 gold was not going to lead me to victory. Also, I tried giving my two allies some instructions/orders and whatever they were doing was nowhere near what I had in mind. I attempted to get Galtrid, who started on the central Island, to merely hold the central Island. I restarted the game a few times giving him different orders of defend, hold this ground, etc. and couldn't figure out a way to get him to keep most of his troops on the island. He always sent a solid portion of his army over the southern walls to their prompt demise.
It's common to balance wesnoth campaigns so that it is possible to beat every scenario with the minimum starting gold at every difficult level with a typical amount of leveled units to recall.
But this scenario is a exception from that rule that is dictated by the storyline.
I am not a good wesnoth player myself but I usually manage to enter scenario 7 on hard with at least 800 gold which is enough to beat it.
At medium you should arrive at least with around 1000 gold pieces and have ~10 lvl2 and some lvl3 units.
So I came to these forums and found this thread and saw a few people said it was easy and one person mentioned all the gold. The last few missions I had some fun at the expense of strategy... and my coffers. I started the mission previous to this one (Acquaintance in Need) with 1300-1400 gold. I promptly blew it all, charged maniacally, failed, regrouped and barely finished that mission. After paying the Dwarves 400 gold (which I didn't have) I was on to this mission (Elves' Last Stand) with the minimum 100 gold.
I wonder how you did manage to arrive at scenario 6 but then need the whole gold from the saurians' treasure. Was scenario6 that incredible hard? It didn't receive much changes lately.
Can you check if the gold was successful transferred along the scenarios 6 and 7 please? (In other words: Did you really spent all the gold or did the rest vanish?)
I decided to redo "Acquaintance in Need" and not charge maniacally. With my limited skill I was able to pull through and bring in 400 gold to this mission.
I believe that 400 gold is under the minimum an experienced player will need to solve scenario7 on medium. You should try Acquaintance in Need again. Maybe santi will give you a hint how it can be solved well.
I reread this thread once again and think I saw someone mention that he was able to get both of his allies to attack the southernmost Orc position. I decided to give that a try.
On turn 1 I told both of my allies to go into "Defensive" mode and "Attack Grubr" (the Orc at the bottom middle of the map). Both sent riders on Turn 2 at Grubr. Galtrid's non-Druids and Sorceresses attacked a few turns later. After they all died Galtrid sent in the Druids and Sorceresses alone. El'Isomithir sent all of his non-Rider troops north. After 4 turns of his troops being massacred in the wrong direction I right clicked on the Great Tree on the central island and clicked "Ask El'Isomithir to move here."

I will never doubt El'Isomithir's courage.
He bravely charged, alone, at Grubr's camp.

Image
That is turn 6 or 7. Inside the square where my screen was located is a yellow circle with a green dot in the middle. That's El'Isomithir. To the northwest there is a line of green troops against a black and purple line. That's El'Isomithir's troops. Link to screenshot.

I've got lots of questions.
1. How can I can get allies to not throw away all their troops by turn 10?
2. If I cannot do that, how can I get my allies to survive to turn 10 without sending a large portion of my own forces to protect them?
3. Have people done this mission with the minimum 100 gold?
The ai controller is quite imperfect in it's current state.
Some developers plan to redo it in the future. No one can say if that really ever happens.
Smurphy
Posts: 2
Joined: December 8th, 2009, 11:26 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Smurphy »

santi wrote:You should have gotten 1800 gold in scenario 5. How did you end up wasting it all?
The key to the previous scenario is DON't OVERRECRUIT.
fabi wrote: I wonder how you did manage to arrive at scenario 6 but then need the whole gold from the saurians' treasure. Was scenario6 that incredible hard? It didn't receive much changes lately.
Can you check if the gold was successful transferred along the scenarios 6 and 7 please? (In other words: Did you really spent all the gold or did the rest vanish?)
Yes, it did get transferred over and yes I did spend it all.

I often do missions a few times knowing the first time I'll probably suicidally charge, see how it works and what the enemies do, and then redo the mission in an intelligent manner. Sometimes I actually succeed when charging maniacally and it sends me on to the next mission. This "send along" happened two times in a row.

When I robbed the Sauron treasury I did my usual "get lots of level 2-3s off the bat and send them at the baddies." I wasn't aware of the Sauron Ambushers "move through zones of control ability" in my initial charge. They decimated my fancy and expensive units and I had to fall back, regroup and spend all my money. I finished robbing the bank on literally the last turn after capturing no towns and spending all my gold. Thus I went on to the next mission with a mere 1400 gold.

So I charged... failed... spent all my money salvaging the mission and actually succeeded.

I went on to the next mission with 1400 gold and thought "1400 gold... what can I do with 1400 gold? Can I just buy, point north, and win?" The answer was "no, no I could not." The mission was not incredibly hard. I simply wanted to try a mindless strategy akin to the Dwarves strategy of recruit Beserker --> attack. Like the previous mission I pulled back with what I had left, regrouped, and somehow still actually won.
fabi wrote: It's common to balance wesnoth campaigns so that it is possible to beat every scenario with the minimum starting gold at every difficult level with a typical amount of leveled units to recall.
But this scenario is a exception from that rule that is dictated by the storyline.
I am not a good wesnoth player myself but I usually manage to enter scenario 7 on hard with at least 800 gold which is enough to beat it.
At medium you should arrive at least with around 1000 gold pieces and have ~10 lvl2 and some lvl3 units.
I redid one mission starting with 1400 gold and was able to finish the mission and head on to the next one with 400 gold instead of the several hundred negative. I suspect I could start the campaign over and be right on the schedule you describe.

I was never aware of the "don't over-recruit" concept. I figured "bonus" gold was simply additional fun money and not necessary towards success.

I'm enjoying this campaign a lot and I do see how the story does call for lots of bonus gold to see you through missions. I simply wanted to report my experiences, especially because they differ dramatically from other posters.
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santi
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by santi »

Not overrecruiting is part of solid wesnoth strategy. TROW is particularly dependent on it and so are most other campaigns. Remember that campaigns are designed so you can win easily on easy, with modest play on medium and
with significant efficiency on hard. If you cross these design requirements, it is not guaranteed that you will be able to finish the campaign. But that's how we become better players :?
MRDNRA
Posts: 212
Joined: September 11th, 2009, 5:06 pm

Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by MRDNRA »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

Easy 1.7.10

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Very interesting, in the context of the campaign so far, it was clear how it fit into the story

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None really. I only lost 3 or 4 units, one of them a non loyal level 2 archer

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

8, given how many enemies there are to fight, it makes for an experience gold mine really. During this mission, I got the loyal fighter who joined in Elvish Treasury, levelled up to Elvish Champion.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No
Dieguitoarg
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Dieguitoarg »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium - 1.8

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 - Balanced difficulty, both of the defense and the attack part.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Excellent

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Killing the trolls and setting up a defensive line at the same time

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 - Very fun, especially the switching of sides (playing your ally and then you)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None that I can think of.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
No idea what that is
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Majki-Fajki
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Majki-Fajki »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard. 1.8
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's little uncertain, how it came to battle.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Hold on in the forest on the north against trolls.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10. It's a bloodbath, but also is perfectly written scenario. Enemy leaders are positioned very smart, terrain is very "dramatic". This battle is great! I lost few lvl.3 veterans, but it was worth it. Big congrats to scenario developers!
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None in the scenario mechanics, but I would add extra lines. When elf leader on south-west dies, Leader in Kalian shoul say something alike "southern keep has fallen! Be prepared soldiers!". Anything - add more climax lines.
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Sometimes wesnoth-luck-factor.
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
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Maiklas3000
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Maiklas3000 »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
hard; 1.8.2

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Okay, but I was uncertain if the dwarves were cannon fodder or would be in my recall list for future scenarios. I didn't like the long dialog with the dwarf leader. I suggest shortening it, and having him say something like, "Well, it's true that we arrived late. No fault of ours... bad weather, ya know. We're keepin' the gold, but we'll stay longer, if it will make you stop whinin'," which would be a hint that the dwarven forces would be available for future battles.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The hard part was withstanding the initial troll onslaught while they were doing a good job of flanking my line. There were also some dicey moments with 3-4 units protecting Ka'lian from amphibious assaults for the sake of Galtrid. I attacked the southern leader's forces with just a few raw recruits as a delaying action, and this worked, but required a partial retreat at one point.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The mop up operations were a pain. I don't have a good idea for how to fix this, except again to make it clear that the dwarves will be back (because mop-up operations are more fun with some level 1 troops still around.)

I was distracted by the changes in the map. In "Ka'lian Under Attack," when I saw the earlier version of this map, I was annoyed that there was a labeled ford at southwest that led only to deep water. (This was 1.8.1, if it matters.) This ford is really a ford this time around. At first I was thinking that the water level was lower this time, and maybe it is, but the northwest is quite different. If you do want to change the water levels, then I suggest the lower water levels first, and then have some dialog about heavy rains before this scenario, which should have significantly higher water levels with large flooded areas and some new one hex (temporary) lakes dotted around. Some naga might make the scenario more fun and challenging. But don't raise any new mountains or make other unrealistic terrain changes.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
N/A
Thrash
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Re: Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Thrash »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.2, Medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3, with ~1000 starting gold and no carry over, the most difficult thing is managing the army.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear, story was interesting, though I think the dwarves could have been incorporated better (see #7).

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Deciding what to recruit.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

4. North side is just managing a line of elves, rotating back the wounded and tuning for most damage. South side is more open and fun. Also, having control of the AI was also interesting.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

By the time the dwarves show up and trudge through the mountains, there is little for them to do. They got the the troll lead, just in time to see him die and they didn't make it to the NW orce before he was finished. They may as well have mops instead of axes. Maybe have some more trolls or something show up to give them something to do.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

I started to play it, thought it was really hard and then realized there was no gold carry-over. Started over and recruited like there was no tomorrow.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

N/A
Yrth
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Re: V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Yrth »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Hard, 1.8.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9, extremely hard

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I didn´t realize first that you can control the dwarves, thought they are another ally

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Surviving, started with 750 gold, your allies can kill the southern orcs on their own or with a little help, but when they have done so they are finished, meanwhile you have the trolls and two orc armies opposite your northern front line, these are up 40 units at one time, I found it really hard to wear them down without loosing all your experienced units

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
10, I like it

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
the dwarves are helpful but not decisive, changing this would be nice but would require a rebalancing

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Many, complete annihilation of my army, loosing some loyal etc.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
...
EZE
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Re: V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by EZE »

Note: It has been a few weeks since playing this one, sorry for low post detail.

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.8.0 Hard 782 gold

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6. Tough but still enjoyable.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
No problem.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Giving orders to the other commanders was fun.
Orc dialog was good, elf side was lacking a bit?

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Holding the north forest edge became difficult when purple orc arrived.
Micro for green's Marshal to keep him from becoming engaged.
Protecting green's surviving druid and sorceress until victory. (I didn't want to see them all die.)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8 (High)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
In my opinion the dwarfs arrived too late to be of any help.
Add elf comment like "The tide is turning" when 2 or 3 enemy leaders are KO.
I don't know if enemies ever made it into the main lake castle, but a comment from Galtrid if this happens would be cool.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

One restart due to bad engagement strategy for the brown troll in north.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
I haven't looked at any of this. As a programmer I might have feedback in review of future release.
Jabie
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Re: V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by Jabie »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.8.5 Easy.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5. Not too tricky, although my Allies made some odd choices, even with my guidance. Though it's pretty obvious, it should come with a warning that it's a long scenario.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Whopping great battle in the middle of a forest. Don't let Galtrid die.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

When one of the orcs died, he mentioned some kind of McGuffin about a stone, but my Leaders didn't react to this. I appreciate this is probably a plot point which will be built upon later, but some kind of reaction would have been nice. (e.g. Kalenz: "Stone?" Landar: "Probably just some stupid orc superstition. They'll be worshipping mud next Moonsday.")

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Getting the AIs out of harms way. Making a stand in the northern forest. Taking enough villages to be useful, but leaving enough for my allies.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9. Whopping great battle against orcs and trolls. Great stuff.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

The Great Tree should do something (I suggest cure poison)

The Archery Range at 40,22 was a little odd. Maybe if you investigate it there could be a wounded (1HP) Marksman who is hiding from the orcs. He should be Loyal to Galtrid.

The time limit is unncessary. You can't carry over any Gold, so you're going to recall / recruit out completely. The orcs aren't going anywhere and neither are the elves.

If there isn't a pay-off later on in the campaign for keeping the SW ally alive, there sure as hell ought to be.
Spoiler:
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No, although my allies have no clue as to how to use Druids. Only once did they cast Slow and they didn't hide behind other troops for protection and succour much. The SW ally was told to move back to the centre to stop him being overrun. Once I had fully recruited, i sent Galtrid back behind my forces where i could protect him.

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?

n/a
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nuorc
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Re: V1.7/1.8 SP - Scenario Review: LoW 7 - Elves' Last Stand

Post by nuorc »

(1) What difficulty levels and what version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium, 1.8.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
storyline is fine, the dialogs are sometimes are bit long, the whole Dwarf-thing was pointless (see #7)

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Besides the obvious (being smart in a big battle), none

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4 (see below)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
- Make the allied ai less stupid
- Make allied commanders listen to my orders
- re-design this Dwarf-thing

I know allies are suicidal and it always annoys me, but it's worse when they're disobeying orders... El'Isomithir never went where I ordered him, and of course his units weren't defensive and never came close to the spot they were supposed to defend. At one point nearly half of Galtrid's force was sitting on the eastern shore, without an enemy in sight... At least the returned to the Ka'lian when I gave my orders again. If you know it's not working properly, I will probably just do without it the next time...

And like Thrash suggested, give the Dwarfs mops. They never came within striking distance. But maybe they were intended to be back-up in case things don't go well...

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
no

(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?
n/a
I have a cunning plan.
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