Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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Linthar
Posts: 77
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Linthar »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium Difficulty 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Quite clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This was the first scenario in a while that really felt like it was advancing the plotline, after a long series of scenarios that were more slowly traveling across half of Wesnoth to reach the Sceptre of fire, which was nice. The alliance though while understandable feels kind of abrupt. It goes from I'm going to kill you to I guess we'll team up in just four lines of dialog, and it really feels like there should be more tension between Li'sar and the other characters given their history.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The scenario wasn't all that difficult other then surviving the first few turns. However it took me a number of attempts due to bad luck on my first attempt. On my first attempt Li'sar had terrible luck and her army collapsed almost instantly, so I spent several attempts after that thinking I need to kill all the units attacking me very fast so I can save her, and that made it impossible to play safely, and I would get my own army killed. Once I realized that normally Li'sar can survive fine on her own I won easily on my first attempt by playing things safe. Oh and I also had a good deal of difficulty in those failed attempts from bats flying in from out of sight to exploit holes in my defenses and kill wounded units that were positioned to be safe from all the trolls. Once I took things slower though I was able to better protect against them.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. A short intense fight that is over before it has the chance to wear out it's welcome.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
It's pretty much fine as it is.
kiss
Posts: 124
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by kiss »

Heir to the Throne - Hasty Alliance - Fighter (Beginner) 1.11.16.
Never played before.

Storyline
"Li'sar: En garde!" funny to read this now. I'm sure they'll end hand in hand.

Events

The map a small map but 33 turns?

Strategy
Difficult to say something in that case. Find a good first team seems very important, Dwarvish Guardsman?

CommentsNo reload, no restart
Dwarvish Guardsman have done the job, but what a shame to recall Enchantress! She was so slow ...
I don't know why I've started that race? There is no obvious reason to do that.

Bingo! They cooperate.

Starting gold+(carried over): 200+(558)/400/100.
Finish turn: 15/33, bonus gold: 188.
Recruit 9:Dwarvish Fighter, 9 Dwarvish Guardsman,Dwarvish Thunderer,Elvish Archer,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Scout,Elvish Shaman,Horseman,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Merman Fighter,Merman Hunter,Thief.
Recall 5: 1 Dwarvish Fighter, 1 Dwarvish Thunderer,Elvish Archer,Elvish Captain, 2 Elvish Druid, 1 Elvish Enchantress,Elvish Fighter,Elvish Hero,Elvish Marksman,Elvish Shaman,Elvish Sorceress,Footpad,Fugitive,Horseman,Knight,Mage,Mermaid Initiate,Mermaid Priestess,Merman Fighter,Merman Hunter,Merman Warrior,Outlaw,Red Mage,Rogue,Thief,Thug,White Mage.

XP tracking.
Dwarvish Guardsman lvl 1: 4/38, 17/47, 16/47, 16/47, 12/38, 7/38
Dwarvish Thunderguard lvl 2: 10/76
Delfador Elder Mage lvl 5: 86/240
Elvish Druid lvl 2: 21/64
Elvish Enchantress lvl 3: 43/180
Kalenz Elvish Lord lvl 2: 95/120
Elvish Shyde lvl 3 28/150
Konrad Lord lvl 3: 136/150

R.I.P. 2: 1 Dwarvish Fighter, 4 Dwarvish Guardsman
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SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 495 gold

Looking at the wml, maybe li'sar's behavior could be altered instead of chance-to-hit.

Guardsmen are solid here. Was going to do xp farming, but Li'sar's troops killed the Troll. Oh well, I got enough xp for my quick guardsmen.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Caladbolg »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5., medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5. The opening can be difficult but after the first 3-4 turns it's relatively easy.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear as a day.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's alright and I have a few complaints as usual but they are relatively minor this time:
1) Konrad: "What in the world are you doing here?" - he seems surprised but not threatened in the least; as I said before, it seems that he sees her as little more than a clingy nuisance (he should feel threatened considering that she is a capable general and is chasing him wherever he goes with a huge army).
2) Li'sar: "Tracking you down, of course! You have escaped me for the last time!" - detective in a parody of crime TV series Li'sar, the most capable commander in Wesnoth.
3) Li'sar says she'll get the scepter even though there were no mentions of her wanting to get it so far.
4) Both sides accept cooperation a little too quickly
But, as I said, these are relatively minor.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Positioning units on the 1st and 2nd turn so as to avoid any casualties.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
5. Nothing special.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I don't really know... to me, cave scenarios are intrinsically boring. Maybe having more villages because this one really does a number on your gold. It is inevitable that your income will go into the red and you have practically no way of dealing with that. Then again, I understand the need for cutting down the player's gold to prevent him from gaining momentum and ending up with obscene amounts of it. In short, I'm not sure what could be done.

An assortment of data:
-starting gold: 717
-recruits(3): 3x Guardsman
-recalls(5): Bandit(loyal), Druid, Fighter, Steelclad, Thunderguard
-turn 1: I have to move vital units away from enemies which means moving them south- dealing with the goblin knight would be a good idea; I spawned some of the tougher units and moved Konrad to the south, exposing him and Delfy a bit so they could act as a bait without being in serious risk; Li'sar sends 2 royal guards to attack enemies on my side, preventing them from reaching my units from more than 2 hexes; she got lucky and both of them survived so I'll be able to put them to good use :twisted:
-turn 2: Delfy softens an enemy which then gets killed, along with another one that royal guards wounded on the previous turn; I get more units, along with a druid for healing; I'm not much concerned about positioning my units because there are wounded royal guards which will make better targets; my plans are foiled when the enemies go after my relatively healthy thunderguard, ignoring a 3 HP royal guard; despite the odds, the thunderguard prevails and the enemies turn to the royal guard and kill him (funnily enough, not the one with 3 HP- that one still lives)
-turn 3: cleaned up most of the enemies on my side, leveling a bandit and a druid to level 3 and getting some nice XP for other units as well
-turn 4: sending most of my units north; main characters along with 2 other units go east to help Li'sar; it's mostly easy from here on out
-mostly rotating my units and trying to funnel XP to guardsmen (at times even using Delfy's melee against trolls if he's not in danger of dying)
-turn 9: threatening the keep in hopes of luring the leader away from a guardsman who could die if hit (which would be a shame because he's got good XP)
-turn 11: my steelclad could die if 2 trolls hit 4/4 but it was an acceptable risk in my opinion as he is on 60% def.
-turn 13: a shyde slows the leader and steelclad kills him
-turns taken: 13/30
-no losses, no reloads
-advancements(6): Fighter->Steelclad, Druid->Shyde, Bandit->Highwayman, 3x Guardsman->Stalwart
-end: 481 gold, 5/5 villages
-carryover: 240
-XP: Thunderguard (1/3), Stalwart (1/4), Steelclad (2/5), Stalwart (1/2), Steelclad (close)
-dmg dealt: +15%
-dmg taken: -1%
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LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Beginner

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Simple, try to survive troll and wolf raid, make sure princess is safe and kill the troll leader

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Well, since they got themselves in bad situation, then the rushed alliance could come in handy

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Surviving trolls and making sure Li'sar doesn't get killed

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 8

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Give Li'sar's remaining soldiers under Konrad's command
Konrad2
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.0, Champion (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

3

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

4

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Poison
Posts: 171
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Poison »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.14.7, Champion (Challenging), 388 starting gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

5. you have to be a little careful but it's ok.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None specifically.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

9. It would be a 10 if Lisar didn't have suicidal tendencies sometimes.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

None, it's great.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

Lisar going all out on several trolls.
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Zrevnur
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Zrevnur »

Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.14.9 Challenging (in Ironman mode), played once
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
7 but not sure really, I think its too RNG due to AI not understanding how to protect leader
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. Simple and silly like most of the rest of the campaign story.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
There is exactly one major challenge - and its the AI not understanding to protect its leader.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. I dont like the AI RNG problem. If you get unlucky (I am making an assumption here, I havent played it often enough to actually know) you lose through no fault of your own.
Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The change which this scenario needs is better AI. (I am aware its not directly a scenario issue.) The Wesnoth AI doesnt seem to use any turn prediction at all (like alpha-beta or Monte Carlo). Considering the relative simplicity of the game it shouldnt be overly hard to make a (much) better AI. I am not sure if this is even wanted though as (far as I remember reading some posts) the AI is made extra stupid in campaigns or something.
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Lord-Knightmare
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Normal/ Wesnoth 1.15.12+dev
2. 7/10
3. crystal clear
4. 6/10
5. Overcoming the first blockade.
6. 7/10
7. So, Li'Sar and her retinue joins me. But where my Spearman, bowman, young ogre recruits? Doesn't make sense that only Li'Sar would join and her soldiers would just simply vanish. Silly.
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mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.2 Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
clear
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Good enough. I keep expecting Konrad to ask Lisar "why are you so obsessed with me??" like in Mean Girls, lol.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Figuring out how to make it through the first few turns.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It's a nice short tactical puzzle. I had to replay the first 3 turns several times to figure out the best way to do it, but it wasn't tedious like in a bigger map where I would have to wait until turn 5-6 before meeting the main enemy force, and I would be dealing with 10+ units of my own.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I really like it. It seems like Lisar's AI has been improved from past versions, since she is not as suicidally aggressive as I remember. I never actually had to restart due to her getting killed.
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Atreides
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Atreides »

Content Feedback wrote: December 7th, 2005, 4:07 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. "Easy" (no reloads ever though, no farming/gaming the system either - have to play as if it were real life) /1.12.6 (not a typo - I started this campaign when I first DLed BfW in 2019 - still plodding through it)
2. 4
3. Clear
4. Was OK
5. Surviving the initial onslaught, if you handle that well the rest is a cakewalk.
6. 8
7. It's fine as is
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Watch this if you wanna see some Thunderers get REAL lucky. :) No not with Lisar you dirty dogs... ;)
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lujo86
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by lujo86 »

(1) What difficulty level and Wesnoth version have you played the scenario on?

1.16.2
Highest

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

1

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

10

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Fair enough.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

If you acquire Dwarven Guardsmen in the previous scenario, this scenario feels like a short Dwarven Guardsmen are silly powerful demo with some plot advancement. I played it twice, and it was almost cutscene-levels of easy both times, although I'm not sure what it would be like without the Guardsmen.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

Well, it's short and easy enough that you don't have time enough to get delighted or annoyed with it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I'd have to try playing it without the Guardsmen, as I can't tell it was supposed to be a serious scenario with them.
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ElvishMystical0
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by ElvishMystical0 »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Versions 1.12 to 1.16 Easy and Medium. This feedback specifically relates to version 1.16 medium.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I'd give this a 7. It's not insanely difficult, but it's not a cakewalk either.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I think having your keep surrounded by high level Trolls and Goblin Knights on Turn 1 makes the scenario objectives crystal clear. I mean it's not like they've dropped by for a coffee and a chat, right?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
One word, fascinating. We've just got through Dwarven Doors, met Reglorn, and vanquished Lionel the Lost General. How did Li'sar and her forces know where we were? Did Reglorn tell her? Is he playing both sides off against one another?

Don't get me wrong, the basic storyline is sound. It's good that the two opposing forces meet up and have a confrontation but this development in the storyline has more holes than a cheese grater.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Wow. I mean just wow. This is another gateway scenario and it's gateway in the sense that you have high level Trolls and Goblin Knights in your face. Either you have high level units on your recall list or you have a decent enough understanding of Wesnoth game play otherwise you're screwed.

I was fortunate as I played Isle of the Damned and had a couple of levelled up Bandits/Highwaymen which can go toe to toe with high level Trolls having twice as many strikes. Sure they get beat up and you need a healer to deal with them afterwards but they help you through the initial onslaught and give you a turn or two to bring your Dwarves and Mages into action.

Then you have the fact that you need to vacate your keep after a few turns. Li'sar recruits high level Loyalist units from a keep adjacent to your keep, but Royal Guards and Pikemen are not match for high level Trolls in caves and if you don't move Konrad after a few turns Li'sar will eventually rush out of her keep Orcish Warlord style and get hammered to death, losing you the scenario.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I give this an 8-9 because while it's in a cave it's short, brutal and bloody. Or fiery. Often I don't have many high level units and I need experience for Dwarvish units and Mages so I try to give back as good as I get and go all out attacking with axes, hammers and other impact weapons and fire.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Outside the storyline which I keep complaining about (I've worked in the performing arts and theatre and it keeps jarring me) the scenario is fine. If someone wants suggestions regarding storylines I'm happy to help because the whole Wesnoth enterprise, despite its shortcomings, is amazing and wonderful.
Orek
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by Orek »

Content Feedback wrote: (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) Challenging (=Champion=Hardest) in 1.14.17 on permadeath
(2) 10 (2nd most difficult = 22nd easiest)
... [Difficult] 2, 16, 14, 4, 9, 6, 5b, 10, 13, 12, 23, 8, 7, 3, 15, 17, 19c, 22, 1, 20b, 11, 24, 18 [Easy]
(3) Clear
(4) Clear and interesting enough
(5) Protecting Li'sar 90% of the time was not very difficult, but improving it to 99% was another story. It took me about 200~300 practice runs in 2 years or so.
(6) 7 (7th most fun = 17th most boring)
... [Fun] 2, 1, 6, 9, 5b, 4, 16, 15, 23, 3, 12, 14, 10, 24, 13, 8, 7, 19c, 20b, 11, 17, 22, 18 [Boring]
(7) None

YouTube Link: Run 1 Run 2 Run 3
Walkthrough: HttT walkthrough (hardest, permadeath, v1.14.17) + General campaign guides (Replays for all scenarios can be downloaded from here.)
JL42
Posts: 66
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Re: Scenario 16: Hasty Alliance

Post by JL42 »

What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Lord / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
5 – (Would probably be several points harder without guardsmen.)
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Mostly clear. The princess is in character, and the idea of a hasty alliance is a logical and effective story development. I have one big question about this scenario though – how the heck did the princess even get down here to the deepest caverns? Specifically, how did she get through Relgorn's band after entering the gates, and then past Geldar's band after that? Did she just slaughter all the dwarves? Or somehow convince them that she was the rightful heir? I feel like this should be explained or at least acknowledged somehow in the dialogue. ("How the heck did you get down here?" "Wasn't easy ....")
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The most troublesome part is keeping the princess alive, since she likes to charge out of her keep and spit at the level 3 enemies. When I won it on this playthrough she was down to around 10 HP and was inappropriately lucky in dodging multiple killing attacks. Also, the princess's troops like to steal all the kills, before getting slaughtered themselves.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6 – It's a simple map, but interesting and engaging. Kind of a unique challenge in how the player is swarmed in the beginning and we have to fight our way out of it.
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
None. Maybe some dialogue adjustments as noted above.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

The maps and storyline here are well-made and polished, though not as completely epic as some of the other campaigns. I like that it is lengthy, giving you time to develop your army, and gradually introduces many different terrains and unit types. This seems like a great beginner campaign since it's fairly easy and the early scenarios are framed as a kind of mentoring environment for the young hero. (However, it's a bit strange that some of the basic dialogue tips, like "hey, loyal units don't require upkeep!" are just now arriving, after I've already played through several previous campaigns without that advice.) There are some glitches that can come up in the Scepter of Fire scenario, and some of the princess-related dialogue around scenarios 17–21 felt a bit confusing and unbelievable (more specific comments in the relevant threads). This campaign is very close to full marks, but due to those few lingering issues and the lack of any real epic blow-you-away maps I'm going to rate it 4 out of 5.
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