Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

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josteph
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by josteph »

Thanks. I think the hint shouldn't just repeat what Lord Bayar said but explain it in different words (and perhaps in out-of-world terms, which are inappropriate for dialog), so I changed "defeat" to "reduce to 0HP". And I made the second part of the sentence more generic since I intend it to teach players that dialogs may contain hints. (The help says that explicitly as of a month or two ago, actually, but still.) See https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/4329, what do you think?
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Poison
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Poison »

For 1.16, heh? It's great. Just have it there as a note. The knights are a big help in the final battle so a hint can't hurt. Something entirely unrelated, why didn't i have dwarvish guardsmen in my recruit list after i met the dwarves? Was this a bug or were they intentionally removed?
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josteph
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by josteph »

New PRs are created against master, but I'll backport it to 1.14 too after merging to master. To get Guardsmen you need to save the ally leader in The Lost General (that's documented in the walkthrough, and in the HttT secrets).
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Poison
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Poison »

josteph wrote: September 9th, 2019, 12:48 pm New PRs are created against master, but I'll backport it to 1.14 too after merging to master. To get Guardsmen you need to save the ally leader in The Lost General (that's documented in the walkthrough, and in the HttT secrets).
Oh, I see, yes he perished before i managed to reach him, the orcs got really lucky and killed him.
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octalot
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by octalot »

Maybe we should add a hint on easy, either a narrator's message at the end or by listing it as a bonus in the objectives.
Zrevnur
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Zrevnur »

Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.14.9 Challenging (in Ironman mode), played once.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
Winning 5, only got one leader. Played very bad - one of my worst plays in this campaign. In part I underestimated (didnt use gold early on etc) it and in part it was just bad play. At first I thought I could get more/all leaders then I abandoned it as it was clear I would have 50 kills long before I could potentially manage that. There was also the problem with (3).
With better play simply winning would be easy. How hard getting all the leaders would be I am not sure. Probably depends on available recalls. Silver mage assault + Merfolk assault would probably make it easy. Otherwise not sure how the AI would play. It seemed to behave a bit weirdly in this scenario.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
I didnt know if I had to kill the enemy leader/s with my leader or if it was enough to use any unit.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear except for point 3.
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Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The major challenge is not losing important units to charges. That also makes map control harder. Horsemen derivates are probably also better than other recruits for the open scenario and the enemies start with map control and extra income. So its all weighted against the player. Normally the AI is much easier to outplay. But the oneshot capable longrange Lancers partially equalize that.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. It would be more fun (maybe 9) if it wouldnt end at 50 kills as it would then be necessary to actually "win properly".
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Having to avoid kills to get the bonus is a bit weird. Dont know.
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lifaen
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by lifaen »

Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Version 1.12.6, medium
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
About 5, probably more difficult if your goal is to defeat all 4 enemy leaders.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Pretty clear in general, though it would probably be helpful for new players to state more directly that every leader you defeat will be available to you in the next scenario.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
  • Winning without losing a unit above level 1: It takes careful planning to keep your high level mages and elvish rangers/avengers/sharpshooters out of the range of enemy knights and lancers during the day, moving them into range behind a line of dwarvish guardsmen at dusk, letting the dwarves take the heat of the initial attack and then killing the knights and lancers with your mages and archers during the night. This strategy also requires that you start the scenario with quite a bit of bonus gold from the last one, because while dwarvish guardsmen are the only lvl-1 unit that can reasonably be expected to survive an attack from a single lancer, quite a few of them will still die.
  • Defeating any of the leaders but the south-eastern one: Li'sar (with the sceptre), Delfador, an elvish sharpshooter and a handful of guardsmen as bodyguards will take care of that guy within the first few turns. But after that, it seems to be nearly impossible to even get near one of the other leaders before you exceed the 35-kill limit and without losses on your side that would outweigh the benefits of getting a few extra grand knights (at least on the direct way – I suppose you could take out the north-west leader with an army of mermen and the other two with a combination of gryphons and silver mages).
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8, because for a change, my favorite strategies for the HttT campaign do not work here:
  • Simply out-recruit and overwhelm the enemy: Due to the abundance of easy-to-hold villages and the many loyal units available to the player, you can play most scenarios with a slightly too large army (making it easier to avoid casualties among your important units) and still have a positive income. Here, you will need quite a few non-loyal troops to keep your important units safe. Also, this is the only scenario in the campaign where the enemy uses village grabbers with lots of MP (knights and lancers) that are superior to yours (gryphon riders) in one-on-one combat.
  • Hold the edge of a high-defense terrain and let the enemy come to you: You can try holding the two forest-patches in the middle of the map with a bunch of elves, but while they will avoid most of the hits there, the ones that do hit will still kill them faster than they can heal because of the huge damage that even a single charging hit does, so this won't work for more than a few turns.
    So while I normally prefer to avoid open-field battles with expendable units on the front-line, that seems to be the only reasonable option here, making for an interesting change.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The AI could be a bit less suicidal – after playing Wesnoth for a while, you get used to the AI not protecting its mounted units against high-level archers, but here enemy lancers will actually charge at fully healthy grand knights if you let them. Of course you can adjust your strategy to this behavior once you know it, but I still found that kind of weird.
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:09 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Normal/Wesnoth 1.15.12+dev
2. 7/10
3. crystal clear
4. 6/10
5. I get the kill counter to hit zero before I can reach any of the remaining Knight Lords. So, I cannot get Lord Bayar or sides 2 and 4 leaders.
6. 5/10
7. Can some MAI be assigned to make those Knight Lords rush me with their escorts (Lancers/Knights)? I mean I can then have a chance of killing them before the kill counter hits zero. I barely got to half the path when the counter hit zero.
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Dyrcona
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Dyrcona »

I'm playing through this on Challenging. (I did it on Normal before.) One thing I've learned, 262 is not enough starting gold. I'm going to have to go back and redo at least Return to Wesnoth and spend less money on troops.
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Dyrcona
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Dyrcona »

Well, I contradicted my previous post, so I think I should share my experience, along with the replay. I did it on Challenging with just 262 starting gold. It was ugly, but I did it!
(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
I’ve played it on Normal and Challenging difficulty on Wesnoth 1.16.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
On Normal I’d say it was 6/10. I got it on the first try.

On Challenging, I found it to be 9/10, but I had half as much starting gold. It took me at least 4 tries to succeed. I’d make it to about turn 15 and one of my heroes would get killed. I used totally different tactics on my final try and let my 3 knight die.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
The dialog was clear to me, and interesting the first time I read it. After the second or third try, I usually skip it.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
It wasn’t particularly challenging on Normal.

On Challenging, I had to let some high level and loyal units go. They served me well, and though it is just a computer game, I get kind of attached to certain NPCs. I was also doing it this time with the aim of collecting all of the loyal units along the way. I did, but some of them didn’t make it to the end with me.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
Well, it was frustrating with only 262 starting gold, but it felt like an achievement to beat it in the end, so I would say it was 8/10 for fun.
[(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I guess it really depends on your definition of fun. I would not change much. It might make sense to adjust the incomes, but that would probably make it too easy.

Edit
I just watched the replay for the first time, and I see that I also made a few mistakes. I would like to go back to about turn 9 and do a few things differently, but that almost never works out for me.

Now, for the replay.
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lujo86
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by lujo86 »

(1) What difficulty level and Wesnoth version have you played the scenario on?

1.16.2
Highest

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

7

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

10.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

It felt shoehorned into the campaign out of nowhere, the opponents were unconvincing and it felt like an excuse to make you fight a bunch of knights because whoever made the campaign felt like it. Honest opinion.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

I didn't clear the bonus objective because of the enemy unit counter counted up to however many it needs to end the scenario, so I guess that's one thing.

Otherwise, cavalry units with charge on the other side made me feel like it's a meatgrinder human-wave scenario, and I recruited appropriately: several waves of elvish fighters and all the heroes I had stacked up from other pitched battle scenarios. If the unit counter wasn't there, I think I would've ended up making it after I withstood the initial waves and reinforced with lvl 3 elves.

Another challenge was that gryphons make somewhat lousy scouts against the enemy units, while the map layout and the bonus objective made me feel like I'm supposed to go for them rather than outriders. I could've been wrong. It was too difficult to make a successful push on the flank with Gryphons, so getting the better of the exchange in the middle wasn't paying out very well.

Otherwise Lysar + Shyde was more or less enough to solo the Green opponent and if there was more time I think I could've just took her around the map in a clockwise order assassinating enemy lords one by one.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

I'm conflicted. The charge units are probably my least favorite design in the game as they are very swingy and tied to RNG. I don't actually have problems fighting them as I don't mind using human wave tactics, but with so many opponents, with the scenario putting 4 heroes on the map for me, and the unit counter creating pressure, it's feels like a frustrating invitation to a lot of turn reloads. It can also mean that however I lay out my troops, the RNG can just mess me up horribly, or mess the opponent up horribly. Either the enemy horsemen just one-hit-kill all of my screening fodder, or the screening fodder massacres them. So not much fun to be had there, for me.

On the other hand, the map's not bad, Longbowmen and a swarm of Bowmen take enough time to get to your troops that when they do there's a deathball of them and your troops are likely banged up, and then reinforcing knights also work well. It feels like it'd make for a nice game of push-and-retreat while paying serious mind to the time of day.

So IDK how to even rate it.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Introduce the horseman clans to the story earlier and make the dialogue less stupid, for one thing, so it's not just "here's a random heap of horsemen for you to fight, because horsemen". IDK, if the story was about Lisar proving her worth to the knights of Wesnoth that she should take over it would maybe be more appealing.

On the gameplay front... Maybe get rid of the unit counter simply because the opponents have a powerful enough unit composition that works against the player on multiple levels (stronger in the day, longbowmen good vs. elves, horsemen always threaten heroes, all enemies can slaughter gryphons, mages are sitting ducks vs. horsemen, the map is large, taking control of enough villages to successfully play human wave tactics is difficult). So the unit counter will just fill up too easily. If it's there to prevent the map being played out in a systematic fashion, then fine, I guess.
Orek
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by Orek »

Content Feedback wrote: (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) Challenging (=Champion=Hardest) in 1.14.17 on permadeath
(2) 6 (11th most difficult = 13th easiest)
... [Difficult] 2, 16, 14, 4, 9, 6, 5b, 10, 13, 12, 23, 8, 7, 3, 15, 17, 19c, 22, 1, 20b, 11, 24, 18 [Easy]
(3) Very clear
(4) The Knights of the Clans seem too willing to join Konrad just because they are defeated, but it must be a necessary plot.
(5) Lancers were very scary.
(6) 6 (9th most fun = 15th most boring)
... [Fun] 2, 1, 6, 9, 5b, 4, 16, 15, 23, 3, 12, 14, 10, 24, 13, 8, 7, 19c, 20b, 11, 17, 22, 18 [Boring]
(7) None

YouTube Link: Run 1 Run 2 Run 3
Walkthrough: HttT walkthrough (hardest, permadeath, v1.14.17) + General campaign guides (Replays for all scenarios can be downloaded from here.)
JoelPera
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by JoelPera »

Content Feedback wrote: (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
(1) Lord (Challenging), 1.16.9
(2) 7 out of 10
(3) After a few turns, the main horselord assured me that if Konrad beat him in a duel, he would personally come and help us for the Battle for Wesnoth. I wanted to try slaying him but wasn't sure if that was the bonus objective. The only bonus objective listed was "Defeat all enemy leaders". I loved the improvement (in this campaign at least) where alternative objectives that gave a special reward say "special bonus". Maybe list defeating him as an alternative objective with the "special bonus" marker (if it's indeed true, I couldn't test it since I ended it by finishing it via the main objective).
(4) Good.
(5) Oh the usual, watching out and annihilating any lancer or knight within range before they could charge. Or simply withdrawing out of their range.
(6) 8/10
(7) Refer point (3). I'm not sure just how possible it is to slay that guy without triggering the main quest completion especially on the hardest difficulty but some tactics do come to mind. That would indeed be !fun! but more discussion required. I think it may be impossible without tweaking that main objective. How is one supposed to duel that guy without slaying 50 of his dudes along the way?
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JL42
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Re: Scenario 23: Test of the Clans

Post by JL42 »

What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
v. 1.16.10
Lord / Challenging
How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
6
How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Mostly clear. There's a slight uncertainty in the dialogue about the defeat-the-enemy-leaders condition, because they simply say they will join "if you defeat me in battle." Not entirely clear what that means, especially since one of them has just turned down the offer of personal combat. It could be interpreted as meaning "if you defeat my troops" or "if you win the scenario." Might want to clarify to something like, "if you can reach my keep and defeat me." And then to further clarify, the next leader should say, "Aye, if you can reach my keep and defeat me then I'll join you as well."
How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Mostly clear. There's one big glitch here though – at the start of the scenario the clans call Konrad "young heir" and Konrad asks them if they will assent to his claim. However, in my game at the elven council we've already firmly established that Konrad is not the heir, and will not claim the throne ....
What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
The biggest difficulty is the obvious threat of losing valuable units to the high-movement, charging enemies. You have to think carefully about your positioning a couple of turns in advance and decide how to approach this huge map, which is really fun. I found it very helpful to recruit some level 1 sacrificial units and put them into poor terrain when needed to draw in the charging enemies.

The other major challenge here is kind of subtle – it's easy to lose track of the most important objectives, which are actually conserving your units and having a ton of gold going into the next scenario. I feel like the trumped-up bonus objective of "defeat the enemy leaders" is almost a kind of red herring, as it provides little real benefit and can distract the player from simply getting the required total kills as quickly and safely as possible. Consider that every single turn you delay in winning this map means starting with around 20 less gold on the next scenario, which means one less unit that you can recall.
How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7
What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Like one of the previous commenters, I felt a bit conflicted regarding the 40-kills win condition. On one hand, it makes total sense. The clans don't want to get all their people beaten down; they just want to see if we're capable before taking the risk of supporting us. On the other hand, though, from a gameplay perspective it's a bit disappointing because just when you start making progress in the fight the scenario ends, and you don't get to play out the rest of this awesome map. I'm kind of ambivalent about whether it is better staying as it is or if I would suggest changing to a total-win scenario.

Either way, I would suggest removing the whole aspect about personally defeating the leaders and them showing up in the next scenario. It feels irritating to me to have objectives that are not feasible or that can only be completed in a gimmicky fashion, and in the current 40-kills setup this seems to me like one of those things where you're going to lose way more than you gain (in terms of gold and units) by trying to avoid kills while going after the leaders. And you're almost certainly not going to get all of the leaders, which then feels like a failure. (In contrast, in a total-win scenario you would always beat them regardless so the objective doesn't matter.) I think what would work better here is if at the end the leaders say something like, "Very well, you have proven your worth. We of the clans will engage the queen's armies in the field and distract them while you march on the city." That squares better with the statement made in the next scenario that most of the queen's forces are away fighting the clans.

---------------
About the Overall Campaign:

The maps and storyline here are well-made and polished, though not as completely epic as some of the other campaigns. I like that it is lengthy, giving you time to develop your army, and gradually introduces many different terrains and unit types. This seems like a great beginner campaign since it's fairly easy and the early scenarios are framed as a kind of mentoring environment for the young hero. (However, it's a bit strange that some of the basic dialogue tips, like "hey, loyal units don't require upkeep!" are just now arriving, after I've already played through several previous campaigns without that advice.) There are some glitches that can come up in the Scepter of Fire scenario, and some of the princess-related dialogue around scenarios 17–21 felt a bit confusing and unbelievable (more specific comments in the relevant threads). This campaign is very close to full marks, but due to those few lingering issues and the lack of any real epic blow-you-away maps I'm going to rate it 4 out of 5.
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