Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Feedback for the mainline campaign Heir to the Throne.

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Ninjuri
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Ninjuri »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
easy 1.10.2
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
100%
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Storyline was decent, always nice to have a choice of destiny to make things feel a little more open ended.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
My major challenge was trying to scale the mountains and reach the orc leader, who i decided i wanted to take out. I had a smaller party fighting the undead, who managed to win in half the time as the one i sent against the orcs, so they just sat there on some villages and took out the occasional skeleton that would spawn after a while.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make the orc camp a little closer or add a path to get across the river northwest for a more direct route to it.
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SBak
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by SBak »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Easy and medium 1.8.5, 1.10.2 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
About a 5 - but I've always gone south and never felt any inclination to go in any other direction.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's good that Kalenz is given some depth to his character, though I feel it's a missed opportunity to give the player a few tips through Delfador and Kalenz discussing the choices and options available. It seems strange that you have two very wise and seasoned veterans (Delfador and Kalenz) leading two inexperienced and young leaders through the campaign and there not to be some discussion at a fork in the campaign. The advice could be conflicting, but in a good natured way.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I first started out by using Mermen as an obstruction at the bridge to hold off the Orcs but the Orcs, who have difficulties with the concept of respect tended to destroy at least one of the Mermen. I found Gryphons somewhat better for XP and they're really good against Orcs but as so often happens the Orcish leader would try and spoil the fun by recruiting Orcish Assassins.

Dealing with the Undead isn't that much of a challenge here given that you have Dwarves, Mages and the level 2 Shaman lines. Kalenz makes a good back up unit for Red Mages.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

6 - comparative to other scenarios in the campaign (but it would get an extra point relative to other Undead in the swamp scenarios).

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
No none really.
bengrf
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by bengrf »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
Normal 1.10.7
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1
I recruited 2 keeps of gryphons and sent them north over the mountins swung them into the snow and destroyed the orc leader and his army by turn 6
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
fool proof
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
avrage
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
keeping gryphons alive
I recruited 2 keeps of gryphons and sent them north over the mountins swung them into the snow
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
6
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I did not want to deal with a long battle after the last one so this was essentially a screw it all scenario. So maby not have the map so imposing upon start.
Linthar
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Linthar »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Medium Difficulty 1.10.7

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
The objectives were mostly clear. Except for the fact that there is little reason to suspect there is actually a third path you can take, let alone how to actually do so. I'm wondering if that is intentional as that branch felt noticeably less polished then the other two branches, so keeping the option hidden might be intended to prevent new players from taking that path.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This scenario finally shows the tension that should have been part of the alliance from the beginning. Still the fact that Li'sar's army has somehow vanished since we last saw it two scenarios ago is rather glaring. She acts like she is in a position to make demands, and if the army she had with her was still there she might be, but as things stand she is a single unit threatening an army of elves, dwarves and merman who have no reason to support her.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
There were none. Armies of level 1 and 2 units are not a threat at this point in the campaign. When I took on the undead the orcs couldn't even reach me in time to hinder me, and while the undead were a factor when I was fighting the orcs on a different run through of the level my army was so much stronger then my opponents that I was able to fight both armies at the same time without any difficulty, in fact I sent a bunch of units south just to farm more xp.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
3. The enemies are far too weak for the scenario to be interesting.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The enemies need to be buffed, especially the undead who were complete pushovers.
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darkeye28
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by darkeye28 »

1)easy,1.12
2)3
3)clear
4)very cool
5)choose what side to go... :lol:
6)7
7)more events (?)
Why are you reading this? Are you stupid? There is nothing to see here, stop reading this now! Or I will... Anyway, do you like One Piece?
SigurdFireDragon
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by SigurdFireDragon »

Played on 1.12.5 Hero (Normal) 678 gold

This was my first time playing this scenario, but happened to read to a little to far in the walkthrough, so I knew where the 3rd path was. So I played this scenario to be able to continue to any of the 3 paths at the end, as I want to explore all of them. Here the replay stops at my decision point.

My scenario strategy: Use elvish air force with gryphons for village capture to take care of northern part of map. As the air force has expensive upkeep, Deploy loyal merfolk for the river and mostly loyals and cheap elvish scouts to handle the southern front, to keep upkeep costs reasonable.
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Caladbolg
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Caladbolg »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.12.5, medium.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
4. That is, for taking out both armies. I didn't try going only after one but it'd probably be 3 for south, 5 for north (dealing with only north would be harder than taking on both armies at once; I'll elaborate in point 7).

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Mostly clear except the part when Li'sar says that she'd be ok with letting Konrad go now that she has the scepter. Once again, her 'mission' was not to get the scepter but to defeat the traitor. If she's going to abandon the mission she had been given and oppose the queen now that she has the scepter, that's alright, but then it should be explained and not hand-waved.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Traversing the mountains :augh: .

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7. Like in the previous scenario, the map is awesome- it is vast and open and the improvements in artwork are very noticable. I last played it on a much older version and this map has considerably lighter and livelier colors which is great. That being said, traversing the mountains is boring and the undead are easily defeated so taking out either side individually isn't really a source of excitement.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make the northern mountains more open.
Reasons:
Bullet points:
-starting gold: 675
-recruits(1): Mage
-recalls(15): Arch Mage (loyal), Bandit, Dwarf Fighter, Stalwart, Thunderer, 2x Steelclad, 2x Thunderguard, Druid, Rider, Gryphon Rider, Silver & White Mage, Netcaster (loyal)
-Kalenz, Rider, Druid, Gryphon and all dwarves except 1 Steelclad go N; the rest go S. N army has units that can easily move in mountains and a druid which would hopefully become a shyde and learn to fly; S army has mostly mages and 2 melee heavy-hitters (Steelclad & Bandit)
-turn 6: most of the undead army defeated in a single turn
-turn 10: I'm close enough to the undead leader that I can defeat him in this turn; however, I'll wait until I surround the other enemy leader so that I start next scenarios with the same conditions
-turn 12: 4 units prove to be insufficient to kill a single orc assassin who manages to poison them all; Silver mage teleports north to prevent the other assassin from taking my villages
-turn 14: most of N army defeated; everyone starts moving towards the leader
-turn 18: N leader surounded and brought down to low HP
-I saved on turn 18 before making a single last move: for north route that is steelclad killing the leader; for the south route, that is a mage advancing to red mage by killing the leader; for the river route that is moving the netcaster to the east edge of the map (that ending is in the replay)
-turns taken: 18/30
-end: 569 gold, 32/32 villages
-carryover: 381
-no losses, no reloads
-advancements(4): Li'sar->lvl 3, Fighter->Steelclad, Steelclad->Lord, Bandit->Highwayman ( +Mage->Red Mage on S route)
-XP (not counting those at last level or below 20% XP): Arch Mage, White Mage, Steelclad (~1/2); Stalwart, Thunderguard (~1/3); Mage, Druid (~3/4)
-dmg dealt: +6%
-dmg taken: +7%
-In hindsight, I probably could've sent a Sylph north instead of 2 level 2 dwarves as the upkeep would be the same, but her help would probably help me finish faster.
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LordWolfDan
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Beginner

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 5

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Easy, decide what enemy leader you'll kill

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Indeed interesting. I start to notice Li'sar's change of heart and switching allegiances. Well done indeed.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Keeping the ground against undead (I went to kill orc leader. By the way, has anyone noticed that the orc leader is the same one from "Elves Besieged"?)

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 6

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- Adding either fog or shroud of war, leaving the player to wander around the map until finding the enemy units while another one is trying to strike behind your back
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Konrad2 »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.15.0, Champion (Challenging)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

0 if you follow the river (not counting finding out about that scenario).
3, if you go for the undead in the south.
5, if you go for the orcs in the north.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Clear.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

None.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5 (Thoria)
5 (South, Dread)
5 (North, Snow)

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

-
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Poison
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Poison »

(1) What difficulty levels have you played the scenario on?

1.14.7, Champion (Challenging), 518 gold.

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

4 for all options.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

So there's a place no one's ever returned alive and a swamp filled with undead? Sounds like places to go to...

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?


None in particular.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

5.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Make the third option more obvious somehow (maybe by auto recalling a merman and giving him some dialog).

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
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Zrevnur
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Zrevnur »

Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.14.9 Challenging (in Ironman mode), played once
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
3
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Not clear, I didnt know there were 3 potential paths. The third is hinted at the dialogue but there is no indication of it being possible and no indication of how to. Only found out about it by reading sth on this site and in this forum.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Ok. But it doesnt make proper sense. Where/Why/How did Lisar lose her troops?
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
None.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
4, there isnt much there to have fun with, if it would be necessary to use the terrain properly it would be more fun. But the enemy is too weak.
Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Make it harder maybe. Maybe make up some excuses about not being able to get the gold through the tunnels yet or sth and let the player start without carry-over and very low gold or sth.
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Content Feedback wrote: March 8th, 2006, 10:06 pm (1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
1. Normal/1.15.12+dev
2. 1/10 (this was a joke, honestly)
3. crystal clear
4. 7/10
5. Deciding which path I wanted. I chose 19C since I hadn't done in like 7-8 years or so.
6. 3/10
7. I expected some wild monsters but it's a dead map. The enemy leaders stop supplying units after I thrash their initial wave. Anyway, this scenario is a joke. So, I took the secret path (you know which one). Also, yeah, I milked the scenario for XP for some units, but Delfador did not stop hogging XP.
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mal_shubertal
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty levels and game versions have you played the scenario on?
1.16.2 Challenging
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
1. trivial difficulty
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
moderately clear. The secret third option with the merman remains secret, I only know about it from reading the walkthrough. I agree with the earlier post that there could be a better hint built in by having a merman say something like "no man or elf has gone over the falls, but a merman might be able to find a safe passage if he got a closer look" or something like that. Similarly, if you take the merman option you can get through this whole scenario with zero fighting. So along with that hint, it could be useful to have a bunch of water monsters or nagas appear in the east area of the river. That way all three choices require a fight, and it can be a race against time with you using mermen to kill the aquatic enemies before the undead/orcs get to the river.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
I like it. Lisar becomes more human, although still super prickly, and you get some character development.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
none. ridiculously easy
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
1. too trivially easy.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
See above under (3), to make the merman option both more obvious and more difficult. Similarly, making the difficulty higher. This could be as simple as giving the enemy leaders more gold. I think part of the tension of this scenario is supposed to be that you're trying to take out one enemy while the other one pressures you from behind, but as it is you can just casually take them both out, or defeat one so quickly you never even encounter the other. Another option would be to have the undead leader heavily invest in Chocobones/ghost-types and the orc leader heavily invest in wolves. That way no matter which direction you choose, the enemy behind you will be more of a threat.
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lujo86
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by lujo86 »

(1) What difficulty level and Wesnoth version have you played the scenario on?

1.16.2
Highest

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

I only went for the Merfolk route, so I felt like I could've done it without recruiting anything but a single merman. So 0. But I went that way with it because it looked like either of the other options was going to be somewhat difficult, especially if trying to not have to overrecruit, so I don't think the level itself is necessarily easy. IDK, I'd have to try playing it seriously.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

10.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

Some of it was better than is the average for the campaign, some of it was unintentional comedy.

(5) What were your major challenges in completing the scenario?

Well, if I went north the terrain would've been very inhospitable and slow to plod through (or maybe require me to play dwarves after several dwarves-only maps), and if I went south I'd be facing high level undead on p much an open plain, also not very inviting, so I took the merman route both times that I played the map. I came with not overly much gold, too.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

If you go the merman route it's a cutscene, which would even be fun if the lousy bits of the dialogue were fixed up.

Not taking the merman route didn't look very enticing.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I'm honestly not sure there's even a need for this to be a scenario at all, what with the merman route being completely easy. Could've just been something like the elf council thingy tbh.
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ElvishMystical0
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Re: Scenario 18: A Choice Must be Made

Post by ElvishMystical0 »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Versions 1.12 to 1.16 Easy and Medium. This feedback relates specifically to 1.16 Medium.
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
I give this a 4. It's not overly difficult.
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Weird. Li'sar has been leading Loyalists who all seem to have vanished, gone home, probably because they got fed up fighting in caves. Kalenz is being his miserable self, Delfador is weird, and Li'sar has somehow morphed into a petulant child. The strongest character out of the four is Kalenz and the depressing aspect of his character is in keeping with Wesnoth lore because he's drank the magic potion given to him by Crelanu (LOW campaign) and outlived Cleodil. He's older and bitter and probably resentful of humans. So what you have here is an undeveloped mess of a storyline.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
My choice is determined by the amount of gold I have and how many levelled units I have. So far in 1.16 I'm low on both and recently have had to come back and replay this scenario because while I beat the southern Undead leader I didn't have enough resources to comfortably get through the Swamp of Dread.

This is the only scenario in the campaign where Gryphon Riders are necessary.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'd give this a 6 because it's a simple scenario with not much fighting. If you go south you just have to deal with the Undead and the Chocobone charge. If you go north and fight the Orcs with Dwarves it's a bit more interesting you get a few more villages but it's a fairly large map which spreads out the Orcish units and you have no Trolls to deal with.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The storyline needs editing and you need more dimension to the characters. If you don't have good, well defined characters that players can identify with - which would help out with the objectives - then you're not going to get very good dialogues. I'm going to make some suggestions for character development.

Konrad

Konrad is a young man who feels cheated in life because he has been denied access to the throne. He grew up with the Elves and Delfador in the forests and he's on a mission to become King as suggested to him by Delfador and the Elves. The Elves don't trust the humans but they will if Konrad becomes king. Konrad is passionate about peace and unity between all the races and wants to bring justice to Wesnoth. It consumes him.

Li'sar

Li'sar is a young woman and Princess who actually is the heir to the throne, but she is tired of her mother's reign of evil over Wesnoth and she wants to be queen so much that she is prepared to betray her mother for access to the throne. Unlike Konrad she is conniving, scheming, because she has been consorting with outlaws in secret behind her mother's back.

Now this is where I make another suggestion regarding the campaign and game play. Let Li'sar continue with Loyalists, but instead of recruiting Ogres, she also recruits outlaw units. Konrad recruits Thieves, but Li'sar also recruits the Thug and Footpad lines. This would balance out the Gryphon Mountain scenario. If you remove the biased against the player attack thing with the Gryphons, and have the Loyalist enemy recruit say Bandits and Outlaws, the Loyalist side still has an advantage, and you don't change the scenario all that much. You simply remove the Ogres.

What you will end up with is a merging of both the Rebels and Knalgan Alliance into one fighting force and this will fit neatly in with everything and the other campaigns.

The relationship between Konrad and Li'sar

They start out as enemies because both want access to the throne. Konrad is passionate about becoming king and uniting the races of Wesnoth, but Li'sar wants to be queen and she's prepared to do anything to become queen. Konrad is high minded and lawful, Li'sar is dark, deceptive and scheming.

However they settle their differences over the sceptre of fire and agree to work together against the Queen. Keep in mind that both Delfador and Kalenz know the history. In Legend of Wesmere it was Kalenz who was seeking to unite Elves and Humans, and the distrust of Humans was coming from Landar. In Delfador's Memoirs Prince Eldred was recruiting outlaw units so it's not much of a stretch for Li'sar in this campaign to also recruit Outlaw units.

Developing the characters in this way should not only set you up for the ending where everyone unites against the Queen, but also addresses issues in previous scenarios.
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