The South Guard

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Deusite
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Deusite »

Yes, that's possible. It would allow the Aethenwood to be as big as anyone wants. Although deciduous forests can appear anywhere where the climate is right; theoretically any kind of forest could appear between the sea and some mountains. But AFAIK they're most likely to be temperate rainforests.

Whatever nemchenk thinks is best.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by nemchenk »

Deusite wrote:Nobody ever said this had to be a geographically feasible forest of course. :D
Well, I think that so long as it doesn't hurt the story or other Wesnoth canon, we should aim for some realism - players are used to Earth geography, so it is good to build on those foundations.
Spoiler:
I hope I'm not coming across as too intransigent - I just want to make sure the end result is a synthesis of the best ideas :) If the jungle idea doesn't work, we don't have to use it.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Deusite »

Something like this could be a good synthesis (it has badgers :mrgreen:). A jungle like this gets a lot of natural fog, which may have to be adapted slightly, or not. Perhaps as the forest gets deeper or further south, it could become more jungle-y, with a deciduous area closer to the borders. Making that look real would depend on the scale, but how much inconsistency with the real world would anyone notice?

Some fairly interesting Elves would have to live in a jungle. :P
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Jozrael »

nemchenk wrote:Hi beetlenaut,
beetlenaut wrote:Don't worry about the story text. If the map makes sense, the story can easily be changed to match it.
Well, of course, but if we alter the story text too much, it won't be The South Guard any more! :) I really like the way the campaign story flows, the way the text sets up the atmosphere, and I don't want to loose that.

As to the size of Kelrath:
Spoiler:
Cheers :)
As to this: really, don't worry about the story text. Changing '3 weeks forced march' to '3 days forced march' doesn't really alter the flavor of the campaign...it's just a word, and doesn't really arbitrarily make the march more epic. The same goes for the type of forest it is (although, truth be told, I think the flavor here is well done. You'd be hard pressed coming up with imagery as epic for a deciduous forest :P.)

Btw, elensefar, from what I can tell by it's size on the main map, is pretty tiny (in comparison to the entire map), whereas yours is more significant. So right now, I'd say that Kelrath is bigger than elensefar. Personally, I'm in favor of making it a bit smaller (but I guess it'll still have to be bigger than elensefar to make sense with the connections to the main map). I think you're doing a great job with this, and props for taking it so seriously.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by nemchenk »

Jozrael wrote:I think you're doing a great job with this, and props for taking it so seriously.
Thank you, Jozrael :) I appreciate that this may seem like a bit of a waste of time (it's a GAME after all! :) ) but it helps me get my thinking straight, and I do honestly believe that players will appreciate this kind of background working-out, even if sub-consciously. And you never know -- it might even prevent a continuity "clanger" or plot-hole you could drive a bus through!
Jozrael wrote:Elensefar, from what I can tell by it's size on the main map, is pretty tiny (in comparison to the entire map), whereas yours is more significant. So right now, I'd say that Kelrath is bigger than elensefar. Personally, I'm in favor of making it a bit smaller (but I guess it'll still have to be bigger than elensefar to make sense with the connections to the main map).
I must be getting the size of Elensefar (the province, not the city!) wrong, then. Here's how I imagined they compare:

Image

Have I got Elensefar right? If that's the size of Elensefar, does Kelrath look "about right"?
Jozrael wrote:really, don't worry about the story text. Changing '3 weeks forced march' to '3 days forced march' doesn't really alter the flavor of the campaign...it's just a word, and doesn't really arbitrarily make the march more epic.
I must disagree here, though :P
Spoiler:
I very much welcome and wish to encourage our debate, however! If you disagree about something, I definitely want to find out your thinking.


Yours,
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by nemchenk »

Deusite wrote:Having the Aethenwood between the sea and a big (impenetrable?) mountain range suggests to me that it's a 'temperate rainforest' (think New Zealand and Japan).
The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of a "temperate rainforest"-based geography, with it's band of thick forest running N/S, sandwiched between the coast and the mountains. It addresses some points for me, for example:
Spoiler:
These are my thoughts on the "temperate rainforest" idea -- I like it, it's definitely an environment I've not often seen in fantasy stories! But I am not sure about a few things... Help me think of the answers? :)
Turuk wrote:What about the deciduous forest that runs up and down the eastern part of the US (as well as being found in other parts of the world)? It can be found between a mountain range and the ocean as well.
I think that's a solid idea, and lets us have the "blob of forest", and the primeval aspect if we describe and picture it as ancient enough. It also has no problems with climate.

It's a solid idea, though perhaps a bit overused in a fantasy setting?
Deusite wrote:Something like this could be a good synthesis (it has badgers :mrgreen:). A jungle like this gets a lot of natural fog, which may have to be adapted slightly, or not. Perhaps as the forest gets deeper or further south, it could become more jungle-y, with a deciduous area closer to the borders. Making that look real would depend on the scale, but how much inconsistency with the real world would anyone notice?

Some fairly interesting Elves would have to live in a jungle. :P
National Geographic wrote:Climb up these hillsides and you'll discover a jungle-like habitat of ... trees entangled with many climbers and low shrubs, and inhabited by an assortment of animals.
This looks good, especially the fog and the thickness of the forest -- and badgers are always a good idea! :lol2:
Spoiler:
This "terrain type" meshes deciduous, temperate rainforest, and jungle nicely, if perhaps at the cost of being as striking as those ones individually...
Last edited by nemchenk on June 10th, 2009, 10:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Turuk »

nemchenk wrote:It's a solid idea, though perhaps a bit overused in a fantasy setting?
You could say that of a forest always filled with a great deal of fog that makes it hard for the heroes to see through and susceptible to ambush... ;)

Any of the ideas would work, and forests vary even within their respective types so you could swing it based on what you have read about or are familiar with and feel would fit.
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Re:

Post by lmelior »

Hello, I came across something that seemed a little off in scenario 4: Vale of Tears, but I'm not sure it counts as a bug. Waaay back on page 2 of this thread, the original campaign author said this:
aelius wrote:Maybe someone can help me with what I'm wrestling with right now. In "Near Lake Kerumbar" I'm wrestling with some WML.

What I want to happen is the first time one of your units with an attack type of pierce attacks some sort of skeleton (i.e. skeleton,skeleton archer,bone shooter,revenant,soul shooter) an event is triggered.

Code: Select all

	[filter]
		side=1
		type=Spearman,Pikeman,Halbardier,Bowman,Longbowman,Master Bowman,Horseman Commander
	[/filter]
	[filter_second]
		type=Skeleton,Skeleton Archer, Revenant, Bone Shooter, Soul Shooter
	[/filter_second]
is how I'm doing this now, but that's sort of unsatisfying because the archer units can attack with swords which are blade type damage. I've looked at the wiki, but I haven't found a way to filter based on attack type...

- b.[/code]
The code is basically the same today (though some unit type names have added/changed), so it's acting as we expect from the code. However, the part that feels odd to me is that this condition is not triggered when Jarek (a Cavalier) attacked the skeleton with his crossbow (a pierce attack). The same would be true for a Cavalryman and a Dragoon as well. I don't know what the state of WML was back then but I wonder if what the author originally intended back then is possible now. It seems like it would be possible from this section of the WML docs, but I tried to verify by either finding an example of a filter or digging through the source. If I knew what I was doing, I would try the following (using current names):

Code: Select all

	[filter_attack]
		type=pierce
	[/filter_attack]
	[filter_second]
		type=Skeleton, Revenant, Deathblade, Draug, Skeleton Archer, Bone Shooter, Banebow
	[/filter_second]
In the WML for other scenarios I've seen filter_attack used in a similar manner with name, range, and special, but never with type. I have noticed that wmlgrammar.py lists type as an acceptable key for filter_attack, but I haven't been able to find the code where this is actually implemented. Or, more likely, I just don't understand it.

What do you think?
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Re: Re:

Post by zookeeper »

lmelior wrote:Hello, I came across something that seemed a little off in scenario 4: Vale of Tears, but I'm not sure it counts as a bug. Waaay back on page 2 of this thread, the original campaign author said this:
aelius wrote:Maybe someone can help me with what I'm wrestling with right now. In "Near Lake Kerumbar" I'm wrestling with some WML.

What I want to happen is the first time one of your units with an attack type of pierce attacks some sort of skeleton (i.e. skeleton,skeleton archer,bone shooter,revenant,soul shooter) an event is triggered.

Code: Select all

	[filter]
		side=1
		type=Spearman,Pikeman,Halbardier,Bowman,Longbowman,Master Bowman,Horseman Commander
	[/filter]
	[filter_second]
		type=Skeleton,Skeleton Archer, Revenant, Bone Shooter, Soul Shooter
	[/filter_second]
is how I'm doing this now, but that's sort of unsatisfying because the archer units can attack with swords which are blade type damage. I've looked at the wiki, but I haven't found a way to filter based on attack type...

- b.[/code]
The code is basically the same today (though some unit type names have added/changed), so it's acting as we expect from the code. However, the part that feels odd to me is that this condition is not triggered when Jarek (a Cavalier) attacked the skeleton with his crossbow (a pierce attack). The same would be true for a Cavalryman and a Dragoon as well. I don't know what the state of WML was back then but I wonder if what the author originally intended back then is possible now. It seems like it would be possible from this section of the WML docs, but I tried to verify by either finding an example of a filter or digging through the source. If I knew what I was doing, I would try the following (using current names):

Code: Select all

	[filter_attack]
		type=pierce
	[/filter_attack]
	[filter_second]
		type=Skeleton, Revenant, Deathblade, Draug, Skeleton Archer, Bone Shooter, Banebow
	[/filter_second]
In the WML for other scenarios I've seen filter_attack used in a similar manner with name, range, and special, but never with type. I have noticed that wmlgrammar.py lists type as an acceptable key for filter_attack, but I haven't been able to find the code where this is actually implemented. Or, more likely, I just don't understand it.

What do you think?
Yes, good idea. I'll make sure that gets done.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Deusite »

Draft of a map for Kerlath for joy and wonder :D. The brown outline shows where I think the mountain range and the blue squiggly line are the rivers. The river already strewn across Kerlath will be a nightmare to get rid of.

Parchment/whatever is from a map from [url=httphttp://exong.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2url]here[/url] about halfway down. A layered version would be a great help is there's one floating around.

I'll probably make the paper brown. Mountains are not green. I could also use advice as to where the vale of tears should go

Image

I prefer the idea of a straight up-down forest because of scenarios like 'The Long March' and 'Return to Kerlath'.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by docrock »

well, just a few things about marching speed and medieval-style armies (maybe to lessen the concerns about schedule and timing in that campaign):
- a medieval (even if we consider BfW fantasy, it still has a medieval theme) army never only consisted of fighting forces. think about food, women, animals, carts ... a huge treck that followed the real fighters
- also, on a long campaign, not even that treck was able to keep all necessary supplies for the fighters, at times they had to stop and just plainly shop, grow, plunder ... whatever, oh yea, and they had to brew (a normal medieval soldier insisted on about 2-3 litres of beer a day - imagine that for an army of 10.000 or 20.000 men with women, slaves, prey, animals, alone the water supply could be a real problem), cook, prepare the carts and beasts of burden and so on, quite a job i would say
- a medieval war, if prolonged and maybe even cursed with bad weather could turn into a logistical nightmare within hours, remember the turks sieging vienna (the first time). they were actually beaten by rain before they even arrived. think of people and horses breaking legs in bad terrain, of soldiers dieing of fever, weapons rusting, everything (including supplies and food) getting wet and rotting, men and beasts drowning in high water and so on. horror.
- the only one who ever managed to beat all this was Wallenstein to my knowledge and he had insane luck. marching a few times all over the german empire of that time was a logistical masterpiece, which still cost him and his troops dearly.
so conclusion: it's absolutely alright for a medieval force to stay put for days, weeks or even months under bad conditions. even more, a force-march of weeks would have been beyond any consideration to them. a force march of days was the maximum to get out of the troops and even then casualties due to the march accumulated to insane amounts. again, the first turkish march on vienna comes to mind. they arrived with not even 50% of the forces they had left with. and only this made their defeat by a few mercenaries possible.
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Deusite »

Thanks for the comment Docrock. I have to wonder why women would go into the Deep Dark Impenetrable Forest of Death™. Also I don't think the nimber of troops is too huge. Most of the original South Guard was massacred (according to Sir Gerrick) and I think the king only sent a small party.

Does the scale of this map seem alright to you?

Now this vale; why does it have two names? It goes from the Vale of Blossoming Trees to the Vale of Tears, randomly regressing itself. It sounds like something made it cry. :P

Or are they actually next to each other? Bleh, confusion. In general the Vale is too far north to me, but I'm not sure.

Image

Obviously not done blalala. Working on the mountains, rivers, mossy paper and stuff. Fixing the latter is more difficult than I thought. The computer I'm doing it on is extra bright so it looked like it was brown until I looked at it on this. Hopefully I'll fathom the inner depths of GIMP so I can do it on my mac. I'm also trying to contact Kestenvarn to get a de-greened version and (by some miracle) a river-less version. I have the fort icons for the appropriate scenarios but not labeling them because they define the borders.

Just noticed Blackwater Port is absent. The Orcs ate it.

/ramble
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by docrock »

I have to wonder why women would go into the Deep Dark Impenetrable Forest of Death™
it's not like they would have had a choice. they were with the treck for cooking, taking care of the injured, entertainment and looking after slaves, prey and animals while their men were out there getting hacked to pieces.
on the other hand ... i imagine a discussion between a commander and his woman "dear, do not go into the forest of death, please" - "oh, you already said this about the cliffs of madness, the desert of despair and the mountains of doom, you are a bit too careful me thinks". discussions like that could be fun to watch. (like "wait, i said do NOT attack that dragon, now look at your armour, all dirty and burned") lol

your maps do look fine to me, i very much like somebody considering their scale. the rivers still do look a bit big for my taste, but hell, they are just landmarks. a medieval map never was something very exact or refined. more like "let's march north till we hit that river and then follow it to the east until we reach the coast".
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by xolodilnikus »

Hi. I'm new to the game so don't know much of its... capabilities, I guess.
Got one idea about background landscape images (that's showing before the scenario) lately.
Is that possible to show overlaying portraits along with text during scenario debriefing - like in in-game dialogs?
Then one can place some scenes even before the mission.
Something like that:
Attachments
Characters may be copyrighted, so i don't show them, sorry.
Characters may be copyrighted, so i don't show them, sorry.
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Deusite
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Re: Beginner Campaign: The South Guard

Post by Deusite »

xolodilnikus wrote:Hi. I'm new to the game so don't know much of its... capabilities, I guess.
Got one idea about background landscape images (that's showing before the scenario) lately.
Is that possible to show overlaying portraits along with text during scenario debriefing - like in in-game dialogs?
Then one can place some scenes even before the mission.
Do you mean the stuff that goes in between [story] tags? If so yes, it's only an image after all.

Look progress!
Image

I'm not done hiding the old river yet and my attempt at drawing a river in the same style failed like so many fails. Those rivers will be a long time coming unless I think of a plan so cunning you could brush your teeth with it. (or just frankenstein it)

C&C anyone?
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