Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Moderator: Forum Moderators
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
"merchants have their own guild, which is influential to some degree on the political life of the cities "Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 20th, 2020, 11:56 amI will note that it's probably not good to have the merchants calling the shots. They would have some influence, certainly, but they're hopefully not the ruling class.
These are the words I chose. It should be open enough without restricting the merchant guild having too much or too less influence.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
I'm fine with that. Sound good.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 19th, 2020, 12:56 am I wouldn't expect nomadic dunefolk to be growing crops in general, honestly. There could be exceptions, but I think nomads would mostly obtain grain only by trading. It would be grown along the river, and maybe near some larger oases.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Origin
We have been able to consolidate a big chunk of lore with the last pages.
Since we progressed with developing content for a possible mainline campaign which might be a gateway to solving the issue with dunefolk origin, we thought to open up this topic here as well in the hope consolidate that topic as well.
So this is what we suggested in the main post.
We also have this by Moony where he combines the options of an myth (while not knowing where exactly the dunefolk came from) and an catalytic even being the reason why they forgot it.
Celtic and Xalzar supports the idea that it's not unlikely that if there was an catalytic event to have happened in the past, that tracking the past and their heritage might be difficult and lead to the creation of myths.
In order to round all this up, I am also gonna quote Yumi from some dm conversations regarding this topic, just to show how all of our thoughts go into the same direction.
After discussing the reworked mainline lore for the green isle, I tried to come up with something which would explain their origin. This "solution" would be more sort of closure for those who need a practical reason why the Dunefolk are at the south of the great continent, while the Green Isle is the origin of human race.
Say we go on with the theory that they had an catalytic event in their past, which made their heritage untraceable for the better part - then we provided a plausible reason/event for that in the main post which I will mention here again in a more elaborated matter.
This origin story would also neatly explain why the Dunefolk's mistrust regarding the use magic. Yumi also considered this could work depending on what origin story we choose for dunefolk. And it also perfectly fits the events in one of the proposed stories for a dunefolk campaign on how it could be exposed to the player. Here I will link to this.
In Summary:
Since we progressed with developing content for a possible mainline campaign which might be a gateway to solving the issue with dunefolk origin, we thought to open up this topic here as well in the hope consolidate that topic as well.
So this is what we suggested in the main post.
Dunefolk Origin
Moony's approach
Celtics Statement
Xalzar's Statement
Quotes Form Yumi
For that I proposed this, which yumi considers plausible:
Catalytic Event
In Summary:
- Dunefolk originate from the Green Isle just as much Haldric does, but that was many centuries before the wesfolk wars and hence irrelevant
- Dunefolk eventually arrived at the Great Continent, it took them some time where. Eventually settled in the southern hemisphere of the Western Great Continent
- Since this "exodus" could be considered ancient, it was not documented due to nomadic lifestyle and is references in mythical type of stories
- A certain part of the emigrated tribes (the athvari) found the use of runic power, which they used to dominate the remaining tribes
- devastating and chaotic wars broke out, an alliance between the Dwarfs and remaining tribes defeated the athvari
- at that moment the remaining tribes developed into the Dunefolk we know of 2day
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Just want to point out that this talk about Dunefolk fighting with Athvari and somehow it ends up with a ban on magic has a parallel in Warhammer 40,000.
In the Warhammer 40,000 setting there is a period called "The Cybernetic Revolt" wherein AI starts rebelling against humans leading to a great long war. The humans eventually win but as a result of the war the humans decide to ban all AI and also ban significant development of technology which is why mankind remains in almost the same level of technology for several millennia. By the way these AI were called "Men of Iron"
In the case of Dunefolk instead of AI it's magic.
Random suggestion: This conflict could be the reason why the Dunefolks land is desolate and barren and desert. The war destroyed the land.
Warhammer 40K wiki article - https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Men_of_Iron
In the Warhammer 40,000 setting there is a period called "The Cybernetic Revolt" wherein AI starts rebelling against humans leading to a great long war. The humans eventually win but as a result of the war the humans decide to ban all AI and also ban significant development of technology which is why mankind remains in almost the same level of technology for several millennia. By the way these AI were called "Men of Iron"
In the case of Dunefolk instead of AI it's magic.
Random suggestion: This conflict could be the reason why the Dunefolks land is desolate and barren and desert. The war destroyed the land.
Warhammer 40K wiki article - https://warhammer40k.fandom.com/wiki/Men_of_Iron
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
We already mentioned that the extension of the war would result in the expansion of the deserts.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Origin
An annotation about the Green Isle: unless it is being changed (I heard rumors about a Rise of Wesnoth update), it is not the place of origin of humans. They come from the West, and colonized the island (first the Islefolk then the Wesfolk).ghype wrote: ↑April 23rd, 2020, 1:48 pm In Summary:
- Dunefolk originate from the Green Isle just as much Haldric does, but that was many centuries before the wesfolk wars and hence irrelevant
- Dunefolk eventually arrived at the Great Continent, it took them some time where. Eventually settled in the southern hemisphere of the Western Great Continent
- Since this "exodus" could be considered ancient, it was not documented due to nomadic lifestyle and is references in mythical type of stories
- A certain part of the emigrated tribes (the athvari) found the use of runic power, which they used to dominate the remaining tribes
- devastating and chaotic wars broke out, an alliance between the Dwarfs and remaining tribes defeated the athvari
- at that moment the remaining tribes developed into the Dunefolk we know of 2day
Unless you mean that Islefolk departed from the island and colonized the southern parts of the Great Continent...but then there is this:
Word of God says he's the first to discover the continent.Timeline of Wesnoth wrote:12 BW: The Crown Prince of Southbay discovers the Great Continent.
I'm all of the Athvari storyline since we have units already made for them and they are interesting, just let's have them survive somewhere somehow to keep the possibility of conflicts in the current timeline.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Origin
As far my knowledge goes, that is subject for change. It was discussed in developers discussion.Xalzar wrote: ↑April 24th, 2020, 6:15 pm An annotation about the Green Isle: unless it is being changed (I heard rumors about a Rise of Wesnoth update), it is not the place of origin of humans. They come from the West, and colonized the island (first the Islefolk then the Wesfolk).
Unless you mean that Islefolk departed from the island and colonized the southern parts of the Great Continent...but then there is this:Word of God says he's the first to discover the continent.Timeline of Wesnoth wrote:12 BW: The Crown Prince of Southbay discovers the Great Continent.
I don 't see know wether we get to see those sprites in that context. I might reuse those sprites but yeah.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
- Celtic_Minstrel
- Developer
- Posts: 2230
- Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
I don't know anything about these Athvari… are they humans? I'm not sure we need a third human faction (though despite that I still like the Aragwaith).
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
The Athvari is just that mythical faction that would be considered a sub-faction of the dunefolk (as they have the same heritage). They are basically just tribes (before the dunefolk were called dunefolk) that abused the power of the runes. Similarly how the ancient lich lords did their secret things but never appear in mainline events (because its ancient), the athvari would be categorised the same. You know they existed, you know they did stuff but they are long gone. So the Athvari wouldn't even appear in the campaigns unless some one makes an UMC campaign about the war they had.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 24th, 2020, 11:18 pm I don't know anything about these Athvari… are they humans? I'm not sure we need a third human faction (though despite that I still like the Aragwaith).
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Are we talking about the same Athvari? In OoA they are different, so we might want to change their name.
In OoA:
- The Athvari are a smaller group of beings that are not related to the dunefolk (although both live in the deserts).
- Both dunefolk and Athvari are able to cast magic. Athvari are excellent magic users, though.
- One time in history due to special circumstances, instead of chosing a "king", the three city states Th'arwya, Serrul and Kesh each send a "king" to rule in the capitol city of Kthar. These were then known as the three kings.
- The three kings then wanted to consolidate their power and used their magical powers and their united armies to overthrow any foe. The three kings used dark magic.
- The reign of terror lasted for some years.
- The first of the Athvari created the Sphere, a giant magical construct with great powers. It is a magical prison, from which one cannot cast magic.
- The Athvari put the three kings in the Sphere and ended their reign.
- Due to their great losses, the Athvari swore, that they would not allow any magic in their lands. Magic would entice people to do bad things.
- The Athvari can sense magic and can teleport. So they hunt down any magic users. They are drawn to magic like moths to the flame.
- Over the course of the years, the knowledge about magic dimished in the population of the dunefolk.
- The Athvari are a small group of beings. Sometimes, Athvari are lured in by magic users and killed. The power of the Athvari diminishes slowly.
- The Sphere broke lose of the control of the Athvari and led to random magical events in the lands. It poses a constant threat.
- The Athvari live on the high rocks of Isanbar. This is the small spot in the Sandy Wastes.
- Often, Athvari are consultants of kings. Athvari are respected by most people.
In OoA:
- The Athvari are a smaller group of beings that are not related to the dunefolk (although both live in the deserts).
- Both dunefolk and Athvari are able to cast magic. Athvari are excellent magic users, though.
- One time in history due to special circumstances, instead of chosing a "king", the three city states Th'arwya, Serrul and Kesh each send a "king" to rule in the capitol city of Kthar. These were then known as the three kings.
- The three kings then wanted to consolidate their power and used their magical powers and their united armies to overthrow any foe. The three kings used dark magic.
- The reign of terror lasted for some years.
- The first of the Athvari created the Sphere, a giant magical construct with great powers. It is a magical prison, from which one cannot cast magic.
- The Athvari put the three kings in the Sphere and ended their reign.
- Due to their great losses, the Athvari swore, that they would not allow any magic in their lands. Magic would entice people to do bad things.
- The Athvari can sense magic and can teleport. So they hunt down any magic users. They are drawn to magic like moths to the flame.
- Over the course of the years, the knowledge about magic dimished in the population of the dunefolk.
- The Athvari are a small group of beings. Sometimes, Athvari are lured in by magic users and killed. The power of the Athvari diminishes slowly.
- The Sphere broke lose of the control of the Athvari and led to random magical events in the lands. It poses a constant threat.
- The Athvari live on the high rocks of Isanbar. This is the small spot in the Sandy Wastes.
- Often, Athvari are consultants of kings. Athvari are respected by most people.
Spoiler:
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
sure. yeah, i used it as a placeholder anyway. The dunefolk related sub faction i was talking about could have any other name.
While I find your campaing amazing, the premise that the dunefolk can use magic in your campaign makes it hard to fit in current dunefolk lore.
Other than that, your campaign is basically about such an cataclysmic event i was talking in my origin story. However, outsourcing the ban and mistrust of magic to a faction that is not dunefolk would seem odd. Like, the athvari are the only reason that the dunefolk cannot use magic? And hence the knoweledge dissapears?
With that in mind, the athvari basically "took over" the dunefolk and made them theirs. I don't know if making dunefolk being subjugated by athvari is right call for mainline, it almost sounds like orcs and undead.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
- Celtic_Minstrel
- Developer
- Posts: 2230
- Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
The OoA scenario seems really unsustainable. The Athvari are painted almost as a magic cult who want to keep the knowledge of magic to themselves; obviously their motivation isn't power, but that's still the effect of it. I think such a setup would more likely breed resentment and lead to dunefolk studying magic in secret… which from the sounds of it is exactly what happened in the scenario, given that many mages were imprisoned in the sphere.
(Mind you, I doubt there is any scenario in which there would not be any dunefolk who study magic in secret.)
Rather than having an external cult-like faction enforcing a ban on magic, it should be the dunefolk themselves, at all levels of government (national, municipal, tribal), and in particular it needs to be more than just "you can't do this". If you tell people they can't do something, some of them will inevitably do it. With just a straightforward ban and no lore surrounding it, mages would probably be somewhat common in the criminal underworld. Rather than simply banning it, they must emphasize the danger of magic, effectively spreading fear of its power. It's probably also necessary to identify the chief things that people used to use magic for and develop alternative non-magic ways of doing those things.
I have a feeling that extended contact with other races would tend to weaken dunefolk views on the danger of magic… so their relations with the more magic-using races (particularly elves and the humans of Wesnoth, as well as possibly merfolk) shouldn't be more than basic trading relations. If they're just trading, they probably won't meet any magic-using individuals (particularly since the other nations surely know of the dunefolk ban on magic), and there's a low chance of the topic of magic coming up. They can have closer relations to races or nations that don't use magic, like nagas, drakes, trolls, or dwarves. (I omitted saurians and orcs because I'm not quite sure where they stand on magic, but I suspect the oracles and shamans would barely qualify as mages.)
(Mind you, I doubt there is any scenario in which there would not be any dunefolk who study magic in secret.)
Rather than having an external cult-like faction enforcing a ban on magic, it should be the dunefolk themselves, at all levels of government (national, municipal, tribal), and in particular it needs to be more than just "you can't do this". If you tell people they can't do something, some of them will inevitably do it. With just a straightforward ban and no lore surrounding it, mages would probably be somewhat common in the criminal underworld. Rather than simply banning it, they must emphasize the danger of magic, effectively spreading fear of its power. It's probably also necessary to identify the chief things that people used to use magic for and develop alternative non-magic ways of doing those things.
I have a feeling that extended contact with other races would tend to weaken dunefolk views on the danger of magic… so their relations with the more magic-using races (particularly elves and the humans of Wesnoth, as well as possibly merfolk) shouldn't be more than basic trading relations. If they're just trading, they probably won't meet any magic-using individuals (particularly since the other nations surely know of the dunefolk ban on magic), and there's a low chance of the topic of magic coming up. They can have closer relations to races or nations that don't use magic, like nagas, drakes, trolls, or dwarves. (I omitted saurians and orcs because I'm not quite sure where they stand on magic, but I suspect the oracles and shamans would barely qualify as mages.)
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
This is well written. will keep notes on that on the main pos.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 25th, 2020, 2:44 pm ...extended contact with other races would tend to weaken dunefolk views on the danger of magic… so their relations with the more magic-using races (particularly elves and the humans of Wesnoth, as well as possibly merfolk) shouldn't be more than basic trading relations. If they're just trading, they probably won't meet any magic-using individuals (particularly since the other nations surely know of the dunefolk ban on magic), and there's a low chance of the topic of magic coming up. They can have closer relations to races or nations that don't use magic, like nagas, drakes, trolls, or dwarves. (I omitted saurians and orcs because I'm not quite sure where they stand on magic, but I suspect the oracles and shamans would barely qualify as mages.)
The scenario i depicted in my cataclysmic dispute between the dunefolks and the sub faction (what ever they may be called if not athvari) is a good start on showing the danger of magic. For that to have long time effect on the dunefolks, they should have been able to either remember or document that events to some degree, to being able talk about those exact danger of magic.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 25th, 2020, 2:44 pm Rather than simply banning it, they must emphasize the danger of magic, effectively spreading fear of its power.
I would opt for the way that the dunefolk luminaries might have knowledge to some degree of the exact events of that cataclysmic war in the past, but they lack of proof or detailed documentation. That's what why it could be cool to have the a campaign where, which is designed as treasure hunt quest, but develops into something bigger while they find scripts about said cataclysmic war.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
- Celtic_Minstrel
- Developer
- Posts: 2230
- Joined: August 3rd, 2012, 11:26 pm
- Location: Canada
- Contact:
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
The cataclysmic dispute that soured the dunefolk on magic has probably faded into myth. There are no doubt a plethora of tall tales and conflicting stories of what exactly happened, and there may be some fragmentary historical records, but no-one knows the exact details.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
OK so here is my attempt to consolidate the more recent comments regarding Dunefolks Pre-History, Origin and their use of magic.
I will consider them consolidated for the moment, if no one has to add to this summary
Pre-History
Origin
Dunefolk's mistrust towards Magic
I will consider them consolidated for the moment, if no one has to add to this summary
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art