Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
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Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
note: this thread is part of the project for developing a dunefolk campaign for mainline. Here is the thread that introduces you to whole project while here is the thread that tries to expand the Great Continent to give the Dunefolk the space they deserve. enjoy"
note: this thread is not complete and will be completed as the development process of the dunefolk campaign takes place
As the note says, this thread only collects and publicly states all the lore we have so far, which then will be the foundation for the wiki page. Note all of them are finished , while others are more elaborated. This thread should also go along with the stories that are being developed for the Dunefolk Campaign.
There are some fundamental questions that need to be answered and consolidated. Here are some:
Dunefolk Origin
Why Dunefolk Have Not Yet Appeared In Other Mainline Campaigns?
Dunefolk & Other Factions/Races
The Golden Age
Why Do The Dunefolk Hate Magic?
How Dunefolk Politics Work
Social
Economy
Military
Food & Animals
If you have read through all of this, it means you know almost as much about Dunefolk as I do. Yumi certainly has another handfull of ideas concerning all these topics which I am sure she will share with us as well.
I'd like to put clarify few last things, where we can start working on:
- We need a name for the Dunefolk Empire - similarly how Wesnoth got it's name.
- We need a title for the leading Paragon of the Dunefolk Empire.
More concrete questions like these will follow out of the discussion,
Thanks for your time!
Last edited by ghype on April 25th, 2020, 3:16 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Some general notes…
- I mentioned this in the other theead too, but why is it an empire? That's kinda boring (plus it gives a vague implication that they're superior to Wesnoth). Why not choose a more interesting and varied form of governance? They could be a federation/confederacy, for example, with the various tribes and city-states having a lot of autonomy. Or they could be a democratic republic akin to ancient Rome or Athens. There are probably other options too.
- I may have missed it, but what's this sanbaar tree?
- When talking about taming, don't forget about more mundane animals such as horses, dogs, and (if they exist here) maybe even camels… and of course the dustboks and taurochs.
- I think just the nagas aren't enough for trading partners. Why not add some dwarves and trolls in the eastern mountains? These could even serve the role of the "athvari" you mentioned, if you want. (Perhaps "athvari" is not an ethnic name but rather the name of a dead dwarvish nation? Though I'm not sure how dwarvish it is as a name.) They could also trade occasionally with the southern elves.
- I think you would find that there are quite a few alchemists who'd share their poisons unscrupulously. Also, consider that alchemists most likely invented naphtha, so there's a bit of overlap between the alchemists and the firetroopers.
- I want to point out that, functionally, a "Mercenary Guild" is essentially identical to an "Adventurer's Guild". If this is the intention, fine; if not, you may wish to change how this works. Note that normally mercenaries would be a travelling group of fighters that sell their services and do their own negotiation.
- Someone who oversees a region wouldn't be called a captain. They'd be called a governor, or maybe even a sultan.
- I think you're overlooking two things about the desert-dwellers' diet. First, some species of snakes and lizards could live out in the sands and may well be a food source. Secondly, desert-dwellers mostly don't live in the middle of nowhere on the sands – if they're not nomads, they're probably living in or near an oasis, which means you've overlooked a major source of food for them. For example, date palms could grow in the oases, giving them a source of fruit. There could be frogs or fish in the oasis as well, and perhaps animals such as, I dunno, rabbits or dustboks or taurochs. And of course there'll be a lot of other plants that could serve as a food source, including grains.
- I'm not sure how much you incorporated the GitHub discussion into that view of wyverns, but I don't think it's logical to refer to the female wyverns as less fierce. Given the right conditions, they'll certainly be as fierce as a male, if not more so.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
That is true. I just used the term to describe what ever it was but it shouldn't have given it a definitive meaning. After hearing your proposal i think something that goes into the direction of a "weighted" democracy makes sense. In a "weighted" Democracy I understand that the votes in the governing bodies are unequal. For example, every City has its own Paragon (which is part of the governing group) while there is one "supreme" Paragon. The "supreme Paragon" (would need a better title), his votes would value more then the other Paragons - lets say 1/3 maybe?. Maybe even 1/2 if there are not many paragons (that would depend on how many cities we establish). This way it is ensured that the governing paragons can prevail of the "supreme" Paragon make bad decisions. In the Paragons descriptions it is said that "there is one Paragon that leads the next generation". That could be the "supreme" Paragon...Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I mentioned this in the other theead too, but why is it an empire? That's kinda boring (plus it gives a vague implication that they're superior to Wesnoth). Why not choose a more interesting and varied form of governance? They could be a federation/confederacy, for example, with the various tribes and city-states having a lot of autonomy. Or they could be a democratic republic akin to ancient Rome or Athens. There are probably other options too.
It is just an idea but other than that, the description suggests that there is only one ruler (which is something you said you want to avoid). This way would be one way to avoid it. For that we should find a better name as just "weighted democracy".No matter the case, at the end of the second training period, the remaining Kalai return and demonstrate their knowledge to the elders of the current ruling caste. Those who are found worthy are then called Paragon, warriors of great strength and acuity who may then be considered as candidates to lead the next generation of Dunefolk.
To further build upon this idea, the tribes are either located around bigger cities or not. The tribes around cities are supported by the cities if needed as the tribes provide goods (other things) and tribes general is a big part of dunefolks tradition. If the tribes need something, then the leader of the tribe which usually is not a paragon talks to the paragon of the city he is supported by and make agreements internally. That Paragon then can redirect the requests to the "council" of paraongs so to say. The tribes that decide to live outside of usual social structure and prefer the dunes, live on their own and are self sustaining and do not need support of cities. They however also have no right to request political things, but usually do no need to do so - as they are self sufficient.
This is from the burner descriptions.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I may have missed it, but what's this sanbaar tree?
An oft forgotten hazard of traversing the desert is the freezing cold that descends upon the sands during the night. To combat this, the Dunefolk typically make use of the highly flammable sap of the Sanbaar tree, which burns slowly and gently in small quantities, providing a modest amount of heat and light. In larger amounts, however, Sanbaar sap is very nearly combustible and burns extremely violently. The Dunefolk quickly realized the applicability of such a substance to warfare and regularly employ fire spouting weapons to sow chaos among their enemies.
I was thinking to make an extra tab just for the Taming aspect. I didn't knew where to categorize it. Then I ended up to mention it briefly in the other texts. For the Wiki, there probably should be one for the taming. Might recompile the text for that at a later moment. I do think that there should be a strict difference between hunting and taming. And if we talk about taming then just because they gain a use out of it and not just because they can.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am When talking about taming, don't forget about more mundane animals such as horses, dogs, and (if they exist here) maybe even camels… and of course the dustboks and taurochs.
For example, I don't think it makes sense to talk about taming dogs unless they use it in warfare or other ways. Similar thing with dustboks. Taurochs are mentioned already about their use as tamed animals and horses as well. About camels ... do we need camels in wesnoth? it just a honest question. While it would make sense, the question is wether we need to talk about them. Either it is assumed, or they don't exist because we taurochs, dustboks and dunefolks especially have horses. A camel couldn't run of various dangers in the desert, a horse could though.
The naga tab under economy was not to express that nagas are dunefolks only trade partners, but to just emphasize that they are an ever existing factor when it comes to trading via ships. If the cloud of bay is used by the dunefolk for import/export that they surely woudl trade with dwarves from the Mountains of Peril, Elves from Black Forest and South Wood and the east coast up north to other races.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I think just the nagas aren't enough for trading partners. Why not add some dwarves and trolls in the eastern mountains? These could even serve the role of the "athvari" you mentioned, if you want. (Perhaps "athvari" is not an ethnic name but rather the name of a dead dwarvish nation? Though I'm not sure how dwarvish it is as a name.) They could also trade occasionally with the southern elves.
Currently, the firetroopers are making the naphta themselves using a distillation process. Now ... it could be possible that the procedure was developed by the alchemist, but for it being to "dangerous" it the firetroopers who execute them. For the alchemists not selling willingly sell the poisons, you might be raid. Bur they can be stolen eitherway, as shown in one of the stories.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I think you would find that there are quite a few alchemists who'd share their poisons unscrupulously. Also, consider that alchemists most likely invented naphtha, so there's a bit of overlap between the alchemists and the firetroopers.
By refining Sanbaar sap through a very specific distillation process, it becomes possible to produce exceedingly flammable naphtha, which burns even more violently than the sap it was derived from.
Yes, thats pretty much it what it should be. But "Mercenary Guild" just sounds proper in comparison to "Adventurer's Guild". While Mercenaries indeed would travel around, the capital provides a hot spot for such mercenaries where at some point a mercenary guild has been formed. High profile offers/missions can be found there.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I want to point out that, functionally, a "Mercenary Guild" is essentially identical to an "Adventurer's Guild". If this is the intention, fine; if not, you may wish to change how this works. Note that normally mercenaries would be a travelling group of fighters that sell their services and do their own negotiation.
That is right but I was not talking from a legislative perspective but more from a executive one. As in you have patrols int he city - like modern day police - but you also have officers that control the patrols of the entire city and surroundings (in that near by tribes - if there are conflicts between habitants of the city and tribes).Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am Someone who oversees a region wouldn't be called a captain. They'd be called a governor, or maybe even a sultan.
I leave that for hejnewar to answer as he wrote that.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I think you're overlooking two things about the desert-dwellers' diet...
I pretty much copied out your suggestion from the git talk. I can update that part anyway if you think it should be changed.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I'm not sure how much you incorporated the GitHub discussion into that view of wyverns, but I don't think it's logical to refer to the female wyverns as less fierce. Given the right conditions, they'll certainly be as fierce as a male, if not more so.
I don't have much of an opinion about that, but I will udpate it into the query of questions so it can be further discussed.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am Now, I'll also add an initial thought as a possible name (or at least name seed) for the dunefolk nation: The Burning Sands Confederacy.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Hi,
since the 'official' lore of the dunefolk is still being worked on, I'd like to offer some some ideas/inspiration from their portrayal in my campaign 'Palms amid Blue Dunes', which are somewhat distinct from what is currently agreed upon. Feel free to accept/reject/discuss any aspect of the following description.
since the 'official' lore of the dunefolk is still being worked on, I'd like to offer some some ideas/inspiration from their portrayal in my campaign 'Palms amid Blue Dunes', which are somewhat distinct from what is currently agreed upon. Feel free to accept/reject/discuss any aspect of the following description.
Origins + Hatred of Magic
Social Organisation
Economy
Relations with other races
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Hello Moony, as I told you in pm, i really much enjoyed your campaign. good job on that. I am still trying to figure out how your campaign would fit the best in the world/lore we are trying to create/consolidate. Because most of this was already established, but not consolidated. I will answer you in pm more to that.
As you can read, I initially suggested a similar approach that the DF might have simply known where they come from, that it got lost int he past for whatever reasons. But now that I think more about it, it seems a bit strange because while wesnothians focused a lot more on magic, the dunefolk spent on sciences. The luminaries as wise as they are should be able to trace back their ancestry to some degree - I think. But we do not have to agree on that.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm In my campaign, the dunefolk themselves don't know where they came from, despite their effords to uncover their history. They wonder about their origins/identity because of it, but it also causes a sense of 'live the day'/'we live in the present, not past' in their culture.
But there is a darker side to it. They have an uneasy feeling about this prompt lack of history. Their only sources of it are orally transmitted origin myths, which do not differ much in form from ordinary fairytales, and are thus discarded by the scholars of the academies. But the chilling aspect comes with the single common moral that is present in all of them, no matter which of the several hundred tales one picks: That a magical evil inflicted terrible harm on their people and that their ancestors fled far to escape it. The uniformity of them all is enough to convince even open-minded scholars that lifting the taboo on magic may be an invitation for disaster. They don't know what happened or when, but that something was horrific enough to burn itself so heavily into their collective memory.
With this I do not what to tell you, because the whole haldric story is currently be rewritten. There might not be the Old Continent, and the Green Isle might look different. And Undead Lore also was consolidated as I do not think they would take slaves. I will send you via pm more to that as well. Generally I did not went too deep into that topic because as said, I am not sure how that might end up looking likeMoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm When Raszul told his tribe's origin myth in scenario 06, he described their ancestor's enslavement by undead and how a dragon rescued and showed them their two highest values: 1.(scientific thought) and 2.(upholding natural laws ('magic is unnatural')). I hinted at the campaign 'The Library of Kratemaqht' and implied an ending in which the learned dragon Kratemaqht (raised in an library) eventually liberates the humans on the old continent from their lich-lords, and leads them to their current residence. This liberation is precisely the war that caused the lich lords to flee to the Green Isle, and would mean that the dunefolk arrived not long (100-200 years?) before Haldric did.
If there is are independent city states that are ruled by paragons , then I don't know if it works with current DF lore regarding the Paragon unit.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm In the cities, culture, trade and science flourishes and all sorts of goods and riches are available through trade with distant outposts and other cities. The cities keep standing armies and are independent city-states (e.g.: ancient Mesopotamia/Etruscans/Greece/Yucatan peninsula) ruled by a Paragon, but demo-(all citizens) aristo-(a council of nobles) theo-(luminaries, academics or priests) and pluto-(the richest merchants) --cracies could exist aswell. Though trade and good relations are ostensibly proclaimed by all, shifting alliances, geopolitics and power struggles are the day-to-day reality.
No matter the case, at the end of the second training period, the remaining Kalai return and demonstrate their knowledge to the elders of the current ruling caste. Those who are found worthy are then called Paragon, warriors of great strength and acuity who may then be considered as candidates to lead the next generation of Dunefolk.
So the tribes basically are caravans? that can be hired? if they were traveling all the time, it would be hard for them to have an established habitat and they might encounter other tribes and they wouldn't also be big then. I dont know. it sounds a bit weird to me.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm The caravan tribesmen are nomadic pastoralists that live in the deserts and plains adjacent and between the city-states. Their culture is more backwards and harsh than of the city-dwellers, mainly because of the extreme environment they inhabit. They form the transportation networks between the cities and lend their navigation expertise/armed strength in exchange for valuable goods (textiles, salt, metalwork) from the cities. Opportunistic and always looking for the highest bidder, the tribes switch their allegiance between the cities, which in their turn hire the cheapest caravans. But most of the time, both forces are in equilibrium, and each tribe is allied to their adjacent city.
I don't know what world map you use but in the one form OoA , the one I work with, Serrul lays exactly at the water. So it sounds weird to me that they have no stable source of water.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm My campaign features only the workings of Serrul, but they should illustrate the dependency (since they are literally built on sand) of cities on trade. Serrul itself does not have a reliable source of drinkable water, and thus requires caravans of tribesmen to transport water from the Cloud River near the Ruins of K'thar (undead/'cursed ones' dwell there, explained in 'Soldier of Wesnoth' and 'Palms amid Blue Dunes'). Serrul pays them with metal tools which were traded from dwarves, with which the dunefolk have ancient pacts of commerce. These dwarves in turn are paid with textiles and other overworldly goods which were traded from other city-states for the spices which Serrul imports from its trade outposts and colonies. phew.[/section]
I am not competent enough to say wether dwarfs disliked magic, but didn't they had magical runes? Those would be considered magic, wouldn't they?MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm Dunefolk seek friendly relations and trade agreements with all sentinent species, but hate users of magic unconditionally. They have especially good relations with dwarves, who equally dislike magic, love a good trade deal, and with whom they have ancient treaties that possibly hint at a common past (Some myths say the dunefolk came by underground tunnels).
This is pretty much the same we got in our lore as well so farMoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm agreement with the naga representative that employs them as mercenaries and protectors of Serrul's trade routes. It is expected that as soon as the other city-states bid higher amounts of gold, the nagas will switch into their service aswell.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
As I said, my post was more of an idea pool, rather than an attempt to directly influence the new dunefolk lore. I did not originally intend to write more than that in this topic, but I will answer your questions concerning my lore.
Pastoral populations do have an established habitat as much as the Mongols have Mongolia. It is just that they frequently change their oases/grazing land in order to not deplete it. Because of their nomadic lifestyle, they cannot manufacture advanced goods, and thus have to trade them at the cities in exchange for something else. This something else may be assistance in the transport of goods from one city to the other.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 4:17 pm So the tribes basically are caravans? that can be hired? if they were traveling all the time, it would be hard for them to have an established habitat and they might encounter other tribes and they wouldn't also be big then. I dont know. it sounds a bit weird to me.
For the sake of the plot, I imagined that the Bay of Clouds is contaminated by salty water from Great Ocean, and that only the Cloud River itself has drinkable water. Specialized trees and crops will still grow, but humans need an intake of normal water from somewhere else.
I always thought that dwarves has an aversion to applied magic (via staff/hands/rituals) and that runic magic was more or less a workaround. But again, I am not an expert either and whereever I read it might be long outdated. But this may be a legitimate plothole / contradiction.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Sounds like you've combined both up my ideas and come up with a democratic federation… which is also fine. I'll also note that (as MoonyDragon also said) this can open the door to having different cities with totally different forms of government. One city might be ruled by a sultan (dictatorship), another might have a city council (either elected or nobility), but they all send one representative to the governing council of the federation which then democratically elects the Paragon.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm That is true. I just used the term to describe what ever it was but it shouldn't have given it a definitive meaning. After hearing your proposal i think something that goes into the direction of a "weighted" democracy makes sense. In a "weighted" Democracy I understand that the votes in the governing bodies are unequal. For example, every City has its own Paragon (which is part of the governing group) while there is one "supreme" Paragon. The "supreme Paragon" (would need a better title), his votes would value more then the other Paragons - lets say 1/3 maybe?. Maybe even 1/2 if there are not many paragons (that would depend on how many cities we establish). This way it is ensured that the governing paragons can prevail of the "supreme" Paragon make bad decisions. In the Paragons descriptions it is said that "there is one Paragon that leads the next generation". That could be the "supreme" Paragon...
I think one thing you've missed is that some tribes may be nomadic and supported by multiple cities. For example, there could be a tribe that spends its summers near one city but winters near a different one, or there could be a tribe that periodically travels between three cities.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm To further build upon this idea, the tribes are either located around bigger cities or not. The tribes around cities are supported by the cities if needed as the tribes provide goods (other things) and tribes general is a big part of dunefolks tradition. If the tribes need something, then the leader of the tribe which usually is not a paragon talks to the paragon of the city he is supported by and make agreements internally. That Paragon then can redirect the requests to the "council" of paraongs so to say. The tribes that decide to live outside of usual social structure and prefer the dunes, live on their own and are self sustaining and do not need support of cities. They however also have no right to request political things, but usually do no need to do so - as they are self sufficient.
Hmm. Well, I guess it's not dissimilar to a rubber tree in a way, so I guess it can work, but I always thought of the firetroopers as using actual crude from open tar ponds.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm This is from the burner descriptions.
An oft forgotten hazard of traversing the desert is the freezing cold that descends upon the sands during the night. To combat this, the Dunefolk typically make use of the highly flammable sap of the Sanbaar tree, which burns slowly and gently in small quantities, providing a modest amount of heat and light. In larger amounts, however, Sanbaar sap is very nearly combustible and burns extremely violently. The Dunefolk quickly realized the applicability of such a substance to warfare and regularly employ fire spouting weapons to sow chaos among their enemies.
Yeah, we don't need camels. I only mentioned them because they are an iconic desert animal.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm About camels ... do we need camels in wesnoth? it just a honest question. While it would make sense, the question is wether we need to talk about them. Either it is assumed, or they don't exist because we taurochs, dustboks and dunefolks especially have horses. A camel couldn't run of various dangers in the desert, a horse could though.
Okay, as long as that was the intention, it's fine (and definitely true that "Mercenary Guild" sounds more like a real guild that might exist in a real world).ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pmYes, thats pretty much it what it should be. But "Mercenary Guild" just sounds proper in comparison to "Adventurer's Guild". While Mercenaries indeed would travel around, the capital provides a hot spot for such mercenaries where at some point a mercenary guild has been formed. High profile offers/missions can be found there.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am I want to point out that, functionally, a "Mercenary Guild" is essentially identical to an "Adventurer's Guild". If this is the intention, fine; if not, you may wish to change how this works. Note that normally mercenaries would be a travelling group of fighters that sell their services and do their own negotiation.
I don't like claims that one culture is "backwards". That has a clear negative connotation that paints the city-dwellers as superior.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pm The caravan tribesmen are nomadic pastoralists that live in the deserts and plains adjacent and between the city-states. Their culture is more backwards and harsh than of the city-dwellers, mainly because of the extreme environment they inhabit.
Not sure if this makes sense. Maybe we need to really pin down what we mean by "tribes". In fact, maybe we should avoid referring to them as "tribes" since I feel like perhaps that name is a bit ambiguous.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pmOpportunistic and always looking for the highest bidder, the tribes switch their allegiance between the cities, which in their turn hire the cheapest caravans. But most of the time, both forces are in equilibrium, and each tribe is allied to their adjacent city.
Are we talking about:
- Small villages? Perhaps farming villages, for example.
- Seasonal nomads? These would either have a (semi-)permanent village, but leave it vacant for the large part of the year as they go on a long journey; or have two (semi-)permanent villages that they alternate between depending on the time of year.
- Itinerant travellers like the real-life Romany people? Such people don't have any permanent settlement and just go wherever they please.
Why are the cities built on sand? Unless there's a very good reason, a city isn't going to spring up out in the middle of the dunes.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pmthey should illustrate the dependency (since they are literally built on sand) of cities on trade.
Again, why? If we have a city that doesn't have a reliable source of drinking water, there needs to be some other very good reasons for it to exist.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pmSerrul itself does not have a reliable source of drinkable water,
Most desert dunefolk cities would be built either on an oasis or on a river. There can be exceptions, of course; but they need to have a very good reason, like some important resource or something.
I don't feel that this is accurate. To be clear, while the dwarves may dislike magic, I don't feel that they hate it as much as the dunefolk seem to. After all… the dwarves did have runesmiths in the past, which is a form of magic. Were dwarvish runesmiths treated in the same way that the kingdom of Wesnoth treats dark adepts? I suspect not; but that's probably how the dunefolk would treat any magic-users (maybe even worse).MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:16 pmThey have especially good relations with dwarves, who equally dislike magic
I wouldn't say that sciences are inherently better at tracking history and ancestry than magical pursuits are (in fact, the wizards and necromancers of Wesnoth are probably fairly scientific themselves). If there was some major conflict in their past, with a loss of records or a great exodus, than regardless of their magical and scientific inclinations, it's possible that they might have forgotten many details of their origin.
See my comment a little earlier in this post, but I'll add that itinerant people (with no permanent settlement, just always travelling) are a real thing that exists and it would be cool to have some in the Wesnoth world. They wouldn't even need to be dunefolk-exclusive, we could place some itinerants in the Wesnoth kingdom too.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 4:17 pm So the tribes basically are caravans? that can be hired? if they were traveling all the time, it would be hard for them to have an established habitat and they might encounter other tribes and they wouldn't also be big then. I dont know. it sounds a bit weird to me.
I think the dwarvish runes would indeed be considered magic, but they also may be a lost art.
This sounds more like seasonal nomads rather than itinerants, which is still cool. There could be some of both, too.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 5:30 pm Pastoral populations do have an established habitat as much as the Mongols have Mongolia. It is just that they frequently change their oases/grazing land in order to not deplete it. Because of their nomadic lifestyle, they cannot manufacture advanced goods, and thus have to trade them at the cities in exchange for something else. This something else may be assistance in the transport of goods from one city to the other.
Yeah, the Bay of Clouds is clearly part of the ocean, so its water is not drinkable without treatment. It's possible the dunefolk may have developed a way to remove the salt from the water so it can be drunk, but I doubt they'd have that on a large enough scale to supply an entire city.MoonyDragon wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 5:30 pmI imagined that the Bay of Clouds is contaminated by salty water from Great Ocean, and that only the Cloud River itself has drinkable water.
Honestly, the solution is to place Serrul right at the mouth of Cloud River.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
My 2 cents...
I quite like this idea since it differentiates the Dunefolk government system from all the sameness of the other nations, it is interesting, it gives space to political intrigue, it is UMC-friendly (I can imagine periods of Dunefolk history during which the "Council of Paragons" is under the heel of a strong Paragon from a prominent city - becoming essentially a dictactorship -, and others where the Supreme Paragon is weak and the Council fractured - more like an unstable republic with shifting alliances)Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pmSounds like you've combined both up my ideas and come up with a democratic federation… which is also fine. I'll also note that (as MoonyDragon also said) this can open the door to having different cities with totally different forms of government. One city might be ruled by a sultan (dictatorship), another might have a city council (either elected or nobility), but they all send one representative to the governing council of the federation which then democratically elects the Paragon.ghype wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 12:41 pm In a "weighted" Democracy I understand that the votes in the governing bodies are unequal. For example, every City has its own Paragon (which is part of the governing group) while there is one "supreme" Paragon. The "supreme Paragon" (would need a better title), his votes would value more then the other Paragons
I can see tribes of all types: some fiercely independent and more outlawish, some nomadic with extablished routes (caravans), some stationed in strategic points of interest (stable villages too small to become a city, at least for the moment), tribes loyal to one city (maybe even place right outside the city walls, they provide services for the city but they mantain their desert lifestyle) or mercenaries. The less monolithic it is, the better.
I like this options since I imagine tar ponds to be too rare to be used reliably to fuel flamethrowers (they would be used more to fuel domestic lanterns and other such things). If the oil comes from trees I can see it used more extensively, even if the distillation would not be so easy.
Agreed. It is simply a different way of life, and someone could prefer that to the more comfortable, but maybe stricter, city-life.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pmI don't like claims that one culture is "backwards". That has a clear negative connotation that paints the city-dwellers as superior.
This. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe#ClassificationCeltic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm Opportunistic and always looking for the highest bidder, the tribes switch their allegiance between the cities, which in their turn hire the cheapest caravans. But most of the time, both forces are in equilibrium, and each tribe is allied to their adjacent city.
Surely to grow they would have the means to obtain sufficient food and water at least, some other minor necessities can be compensated by neighbouring tribes. Then as the cities grow, food could be also imported, but large amounts of water are not easily transported for miles in the desert. Aqueducts anyone?Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm Why are the cities built on sand? Unless there's a very good reason, a city isn't going to spring up out in the middle of the dunes.
As per canon (unless is being retconned right now with the changes of mainline campaigns), rune magic has indeed been a lost art at least for northern dwarves, until they rediscovered (it has been missing between 40 YW - 550 YW). That said, everything could change for the southern dwarves, since I believe the are not many contacts with their nordic brothers. I think it's plausible they lost runesmithing too and they never reacquired it (possibly for a lack of interest or other reasons).Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pmI think the dwarvish runes would indeed be considered magic, but they also may be a lost art.
If the Dunefolk origins are traumatic and the aftermath a fight for survival, there could be reasons to try to forgot the dark times (or the impossibility to record historical facts during the duress), and history could have been morphed into more epic mythos (with a warning against magic) or handed down orally with ever-growing inaccuracies.
I can see Alchemists do that, but only on a tribe-scale.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pmYeah, the Bay of Clouds is clearly part of the ocean, so its water is not drinkable without treatment. It's possible the dunefolk may have developed a way to remove the salt from the water so it can be drunk, but I doubt they'd have that on a large enough scale to supply an entire city.
I'd like to see them more represented in the lore of the Dunefolk, since Nagas are already quite excluded from the lore. Also it would give a solid reason to see them together in MP, unlike Drakes and Saurians.Naga...
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
To be clear, a federation is a little different from a republic. Think less United States and more Russia. The United States does have some aspects of a federation, mind you, but my understanding is that the level of autonomy is greater under a federation.Xalzar wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 8:54 pm I quite like this idea since it differentiates the Dunefolk government system from all the sameness of the other nations, it is interesting, it gives space to political intrigue, it is UMC-friendly (I can imagine periods of Dunefolk history during which the "Council of Paragons" is under the heel of a strong Paragon from a prominent city - becoming essentially a dictactorship -, and others where the Supreme Paragon is weak and the Council fractured - more like an unstable republic with shifting alliances)
Just noting that this appears to be a misquote - those are not my words.Xalzar wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 8:54 pmThis. Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe#ClassificationCeltic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm Opportunistic and always looking for the highest bidder, the tribes switch their allegiance between the cities, which in their turn hire the cheapest caravans. But most of the time, both forces are in equilibrium, and each tribe is allied to their adjacent city.
Aqueducts in the Roman sense (as far as I'm aware) would be a very inefficient way to transport water in the desert, but just building a roof over them would at least partly fix that, so sure.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Well actually, most of the time, aqueducts are at least partially underground. So you could imagine a huge underground aqueduct (maybe carved in the underground or build and covered so that the dunes pass over it).Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 11:28 pmAqueducts in the Roman sense (as far as I'm aware) would be a very inefficient way to transport water in the desert, but just building a roof over them would at least partly fix that, so sure.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
OK so here is my attempt to summarise the more important things into text:
Well currently, we have just what you see. If either you or Moony would like to expand on the Naga thing, to develope a vivid dynamic , that would be cool.
Cities
Tribes
Well currently, we have just what you see. If either you or Moony would like to expand on the Naga thing, to develope a vivid dynamic , that would be cool.
While it is an question to consider, I don't think we have to go into the nitty gritty as there are cities build on the ocean side with no river and others that are build in mainland and we do no question their source of water. We just assume it.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 6:16 pm MoonyDragon wrote: ↑Yesterday, 1:16 pm
Serrul itself does not have a reliable source of drinkable water,
Again, why? If we have a city that doesn't have a reliable source of drinking water, there needs to be some other very good reasons for it to exist.
stuff I worked on: Dunefolk Rework - ghype's Daily Art
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Sure.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 15th, 2020, 1:44 am First, some species of snakes and lizards could live out in the sands and may well be a food source.
Fruits - sure but I don't think that that would be major source of food.Secondly, desert-dwellers mostly don't live in the middle of nowhere on the sands – if they're not nomads, they're probably living in or near an oasis, which means you've overlooked a major source of food for them. For example, date palms could grow in the oases, giving them a source of fruit. There could be frogs or fish in the oasis as well, and perhaps animals such as, I dunno, rabbits or dustboks or taurochs. And of course there'll be a lot of other plants that could serve as a food source, including grains.
Frogs and fish - only frogs, fish would live only in massive lakes and dune oasis aren't big enogh I think and they need to get there somehow.
Animals - here I would add bugs, big and small ones. Why big? Because Quenoth have armour and weapons made of of big bugs.
Grains - no. If you want to live near one oasis for a long time I wouldn't recommend grains at all, they are ok if you have big river somewhere close, not small oasis.
Other plants - sure, creating some fictional plants for them that are well prepared for desert condition could be interesting.
Worth noting is that dunefolk live not only on desert but also near / on hills and mountains.
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Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Well, okay. It might work, if you dig deep enough for more solid ground.lhybrideur wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 9:07 am Well actually, most of the time, aqueducts are at least partially underground. So you could imagine a huge underground aqueduct (maybe carved in the underground or build and covered so that the dunes pass over it).
I have two ideas here.
The need for a separate title stems from using the word Paragon to describe the leader of each city. If cities were ruled by a prince, sultan, president, or prime minister (the title could vary depending on the city), then the "supreme" Paragon could simply be the Paragon.
Alternatively, a nice way to make a title more impressive is to prefix arch-, so the "supreme" Paragon could be called the Arch-Paragon.
Note that either way we could use the Dune Paragon unit to represent leaders of specific cities; the person's actual title does not need to perfectly match their unit type.
I think the Paragon description should be revised in either case, as the idea of choosing your leader from people who were selected through duels to the death does not sit right for me, especially for a civilization that's supposedly scientifically-inclined. However, the description specifically of how the next leader is chosen seems to be vague enough to cover either (1) or (2).ghype wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 9:39 am Furthermore, we have to decided how that „supreme“ Paragon is chosen.
(1) Initially I thought that the Paragons vote between themselves but a Paragon cannot suggest him self. If we go that route, then we have to decide wether this happens periodically every 10 to 20 years or if that happens upon death. I would opt for periodically because if it is upon lifetime that this only promotes assassination.
(2) The second way of going is that the the council of the Paragon vote the next „supreme“ Paragon together with the council of Luminaries of each city. This would be in accordance with the current Description of the Paragon unit as is 1.15 …
I would be fine with both, but if we go with (1) then we would have to revise the Paragons descriptions.
This is the part that I think should be changed if the Dune Paragon is to represent the ruling class. It might be barely an acceptable way to select a military general, but it is probably a terrible way to select a good leader. Using military training (without the death matches) is acceptable for potential leaders mind you; it just shouldn't be the only thing they study.Paragon Description wrote:From adolescence, ten years of intense training paves the path to the final test, a series of duels to the death between pairs of these fighters. When the dust settles and the process is ended, eight are left remaining. These men are granted the title Kal, or collectively, Kalai.
This technically says nothing about how the Paragon is actually chosen, but the general implication of this description is that the Paragon is chosen from the general populace, by merit. If we want to stick closer to the current Paragon description, I think we'd have to conclude that neither (1) nor (2) is the way of choosing the Paragon. So here's method (3), based on my extrapolation of the description combined with what we decided about the overall governance system.Paragon Description wrote:No matter the case, at the end of the second training period, the remaining Kalai return and demonstrate their knowledge to the elders of the current ruling caste. Those who are found worthy are then called Paragon, warriors of great strength and acuity who may then be considered as candidates to lead the next generation of Dunefolk.
The leader of each city is chosen in some manner depending on the city. They might be elected, they might be the leader of an elected council, or they might inherit the position. Whatever the case, these leaders form a council that I'll call the Ruling Council. It is up to the Ruling Council to choose the Paragon, who is also a member of the Ruling Council. However, the candidates for the Paragon are nominated by an entirely separate council of luminaries, and in particular, the candidates for Paragon are not drawn from the Ruling Council. In other words, the Paragon is not the leader of one of the cities. The luminary council selects candidates (the Kalai of the description), probably via examinations (ie, they have to take a test), and then the Ruling Council (minus the Paragon obviously) votes on the candidates. The chosen candidate then joins the Ruling Council as the Paragon.
Well, I'll say it's totally possible for a federation to have a capital – Russia is a federation and still has a capital! How exactly that works when most members of the federation are city-states, I'm not quite sure, but I think something can definitely be worked out. If you want Th'arwya to be the capital, we can make it the capital. Perhaps all the federal governance machinery (like buildings where the council meet and such) is in Th'arwya.ghype wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 9:39 am Maybe we also drop that there is ONE capital as the capital could be considered where the currently "supreme" Paragon is ruling. We initially said that Th'arwya could be the capital. But instead I would just say that its the biggest and most popularised of the Cities. Now certainly, we can have the campaigns take place where Th'arwya currently is the captial, then it makes sense, but have to at least make it clear in the wiki that there is not such thing as the one and only capital, but rather the governing city.
Whether to mark a "tribe" on the map would depend on the map, I'd say. If it's a world map, intended for general use by navigation, then itinerant peoples would have no marking on the map, but seasonal nomads that migrate between fixed locations could be marked, and in fact would be marked in multiple places. On the other hand, on a campaign map, you might want to mark an encampment of itinerants if they are important to the story, keeping in mind that the marking may move as the campaign progresses (so it wouldn't be on the base map but would instead be an overlay).ghype wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 9:39 am A question now arises, does it even make sense that to mark tribes on the world map? I would mark the localised on the map which would be either located on the cloud bay (as alchemists could have enough capacities to purify water of the salt for a small tribe) and around bigger cities or rivers. Wandering tribes would either remain unmarked or marked but unnamed. If we leave them unmarked then they could be good for "random encoutners" in campaign it would be a thing. If we do not mark them, then we might loose perspective on how big the dunefolks actually are.
Generally speaking, I would say any permanent settlement should be marked. Some nomads may have permanent settlements that are abandoned for part of the year, so those would be marked. Other nomads may live their entire lives in tents that can be easily taken down for travel, so they wouldn't be marked on the map.
Don't forget rainfall and groundwater are also potential sources of water. Especially if they're near the edge of the desert, they may be able to dig wells or build cisterns that capture rainwater, so the purification of saltwater would then be more of a supplement than a primary source of water.
I would say a coastal city probably has a reliable water source. It's not the sea, sure; but there probably is one.
I think there'd be quite a bit of fruit. It wouldn't be a primary source of food, but it would be significant. Note that some types of cactus also produce fruit.
Pretty sure fish can live in small lakes too, and I have a feeling you're underestimating the size of an oasis. Okay, so there could be an oasis that's little more than a puddle in the ground (or indeed so small that there isn't a lake at all, just a patch of greenery in the middle of the desert). But I think a more typical oasis would have a decent-sized lake, deep enough that you can't just walk across the middle. And you're wrong that the fish need to get there somehow. If fish ended up in the lake one way or another (perhaps an ancient flood?), they would reproduce in the lake.
Bugs, sure.
I think you're forgetting that they do have a river. There would definitely be grain grown near the Cloud River. I don't know whether it would be wheat or something else, but there would be some sort of grain. That said, I think you could still grow grain on an oasis, even a small one, though on a small one it may not be the most efficient use of space.
Fictional plants sure, but don't neglect real plants either. But I was thinking more of oasis or riverside plants rather than desert-adapted plants. Most desert-dwellers don't spend their entire life on the sands. They don't need to get all their sustenance from the sands. If you fail to consider oases and rivers, you'll come up with a skewed view of their diets.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Also we could have giant duneworms tunneling underneath the deserts. They could pose as a great danger and food source, which makes it essentials for some tribes that don't have other food sources to roam the deserts on the search for the worms. Those tribes could be in need for salt to pickle the worm flesh, which would open up some interactions for general trade.
I like celticminstrels idea about the choosing of the paragons. That would allow us to have a city as a military oriented one, where the paragon is chosen by battle or to have a more trade oriented one.
I like celticminstrels idea about the choosing of the paragons. That would allow us to have a city as a military oriented one, where the paragon is chosen by battle or to have a more trade oriented one.
Re: Dunefolk Lore - Consolidation
Well I was talking about nomadic and only nomadic dunefolk.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 1:30 pmI think there'd be quite a bit of fruit. It wouldn't be a primary source of food, but it would be significant. Note that some types of cactus also produce fruit.
Pretty sure fish can live in small lakes too, and I have a feeling you're underestimating the size of an oasis. Okay, so there could be an oasis that's little more than a puddle in the ground (or indeed so small that there isn't a lake at all, just a patch of greenery in the middle of the desert). But I think a more typical oasis would have a decent-sized lake, deep enough that you can't just walk across the middle. And you're wrong that the fish need to get there somehow. If fish ended up in the lake one way or another (perhaps an ancient flood?), they would reproduce in the lake.
I think you're forgetting that they do have a river. There would definitely be grain grown near the Cloud River. I don't know whether it would be wheat or something else, but there would be some sort of grain. That said, I think you could still grow grain on an oasis, even a small one, though on a small one it may not be the most efficient use of space.
Fictional plants sure, but don't neglect real plants either. But I was thinking more of oasis or riverside plants rather than desert-adapted plants. Most desert-dwellers don't spend their entire life on the sands. They don't need to get all their sustenance from the sands. If you fail to consider oases and rivers, you'll come up with a skewed view of their diets.
I don't exactly know how much of fruit would they eat. I just know that that wouldn't be big part of their diet.
I'm against grains because they will lead to degradation of soil, and serious at that as proven by modern day egypt (few years is enough really). Not only you need to water them with something that shouldn't be wasted (even if you have oasis of 1ha size) it will also lead to extreme soil salinity and because of desert conditions you pretty much can't do anything about it. With river and constant irrigation it just isn't as bad - I mean you just have way more water to deal with that. Fictional plant that absorbs a lot of salt form ground can not only deal with that but would also fetch nice price as spice.
Afaik, on deserts on earth there is only one oasis with fish in it - Fish springs in USA and it's big, about 7 times bigger than average oasis. I'm doubtful about this giant ancient flood in the middle of desert. It's much more likely that they came thru underground connection or humans just introduced them.
Sure, trade exists, in fact nomadic dunefolk will probably eat things similar to non-nomadic dunefolk just in different proportions. They might even have more diversified diet than city dunefolk.
Reminds me about "Dune". That could be fun something for campaign.Kwandulin wrote: ↑April 16th, 2020, 1:58 pm Also we could have giant duneworms tunneling underneath the deserts. They could pose as a great danger and food source, which makes it essentials for some tribes that don't have other food sources to roam the deserts on the search for the worms. Those tribes could be in need for salt to pickle the worm flesh, which would open up some interactions for general trade.