[New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

It's not easy creating an entire faction or era. Post your work and collaborate in this forum.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:54 pm Ogre Hunter is on the ranking exactly at 1. ;)
Not sure what you mean :?
Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:54 pmI was just advising to balance this fraction as if without this ability and then add it on top of already balanced faction, then you can just adjust this ability but I completely forgot that doing that this way is easy for me but may not be for everyone else. :doh: Of course i can propose some more concrete changes to units or pillage ability if you want.
Ah, fair enough/ Yeah, that's a good idea.
Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:54 pmThanks! I was also thinking about enslavement "break will" attack of Tarhan as a unit that is already strong maybe just adding some kind of drawback would be enough, I was thinking about making him unable to attack and move for one turn after successfully using this ability. No idea how would that feel in game tho.
Hmmmm... might consider nerfing the health of newly-enslaved units from 50% to 33%, but no guarantees. The khaganate is currently a little underpowered at times, imo.
Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:54 pmIn my opinion its not that hard, of course Im not talking about perfect balance but good one? Should be possible. Playing vs ai is bad example because Khagnate is easier to beat than any default faction while playing as Tumen. :P
Fair enough.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
Atreides
Posts: 346
Joined: March 30th, 2019, 10:38 pm
Location: A Nude Land

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Atreides »

Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 4:54 pm
ForestDragon wrote: February 15th, 2021, 8:04 am I think most likely we'll only really go for internal balance, as balancing against the default factions with our fancy abilities would be nearly impossible.
In my opinion its not that hard, of course Im not talking about perfect balance but good one? Should be possible. Playing vs ai is bad example because Khagnate is easier to beat than any default faction while playing as Tumen. :P
I agree, I managed to balance the weird gift giving and berserk herbalist abilties in the Lonely Era fairly well. By balanced though I mean in computer vs computer matches. Balancing for players is pointless I believe since players vary in ability so greatly. I'm no Terminator player by any means so it would be hopeless if I used myself as a benchmark vs the ai. I can beat it usually now (yes I'm proud of that measly achievement :) so that throws a wrench in that.
I am positive that I can exploit the gift/herb-berserk abilities significantly better than the ai ever could and the same likely applies to pillage/freeing/capture once I grok them properly. Which should be great fun.
So IMHO all you should attempt to do balance wise is to get the 2 sides to beat each other 50/50 under ai control. It _is_ a lot of work but within reason.
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Atreides wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:03 pm So IMHO all you should attempt to do balance wise is to get the 2 sides to beat each other 50/50 under ai control. It _is_ a lot of work but within reason.
That won't really work with the era as of now, because unfortunately I didn't really manage to get the ai to use basic khaganate tactics (keeping slaves next to nagas), making ai matches nearly useless for balancing.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
Hejnewar
Developer
Posts: 180
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Hejnewar »

ForestDragon wrote: February 15th, 2021, 5:56 pm Not sure what you mean :?
In my list there is Ogre Chariot, then 1 and in the same line Ogre Hunter. I did this this way to show that his strength is equal to strength of average default unit.
Ogre Chariot - good fun unit.
1 - Here is average default era unit strength, Ogre Hunter - I prefer Hunter over Grunt because he doesnt receive as much retail damage.
Ogre Grunt - just nice unit.
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:13 pm
ForestDragon wrote: February 15th, 2021, 5:56 pm Not sure what you mean :?
In my list there is Ogre Chariot, then 1 and in the same line Ogre Hunter. I did this this way to show that his strength is equal to strength of average default unit.
Ogre Chariot - good fun unit.
1 - Here is average default era unit strength, Ogre Hunter - I prefer Hunter over Grunt because he doesnt receive as much retail damage.
Ogre Grunt - just nice unit.
Ah, got it, thanks.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

The 0.1.2 update is out! Changelog:
- the disloyal ability has been reworked (it's now based on nearby unit levels, similar to freeing slaves, instead of on RNG)
- slaves/disloyal units can no longer move/attack on the same turn as deserting
- nerfed the ogre chariot's pierce resistance from 0% to -20%
- reduced nuckelavee's price from 17 to 16 (and it's advancements are a bit cheaper too)
- slave archers can now have the dextrous trait
- fixed the trample ability not destroying villages the unit lands on (as well as any other moveto events, for that matter)
- a few minor spelling fixes
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
Atreides
Posts: 346
Joined: March 30th, 2019, 10:38 pm
Location: A Nude Land

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Atreides »

ForestDragon wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:07 pm
Atreides wrote: February 15th, 2021, 7:03 pm So IMHO all you should attempt to do balance wise is to get the 2 sides to beat each other 50/50 under ai control. It _is_ a lot of work but within reason.
That won't really work with the era as of now, because unfortunately I didn't really manage to get the ai to use basic khaganate tactics (keeping slaves next to nagas), making ai matches nearly useless for balancing.
Oh I see, that also sheds more light on my query regarding ai directives. It sounds like this era might not work well outside of player vs player. Is it really only intended for that or will there be attempts to make it work vs the computer?
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Atreides wrote: February 16th, 2021, 6:17 pm Oh I see, that also sheds more light on my query regarding ai directives. It sounds like this era might not work well outside of player vs player. Is it really only intended for that or will there be attempts to make it work vs the computer?
Well, actually, I am trying to make the era somewhat AI-friendly (which is why there are no, say, rightclick menus as of now). As for the slave AI problem, Lord-Knightmare suggested a potential solution to me on discord, so there is a chance that slaves might work properly in the next patch. EDIT: nvm, not 100% sure it will work, but might still try it.
Last edited by ForestDragon on February 17th, 2021, 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
Hejnewar
Developer
Posts: 180
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Hejnewar »

Hmm I don't necessarily like all of these changes but its step in right direction.

I like the disloyal change.
Pierce nerf is bit too big in my opinion still its ok, still decent unit.
Nuckelavee cost reduction is in my opinion bad, Khagnate has other actually weak units to buff.
Archer slave is indeed weaker than Spear slave but are they elvish (it would be nice lore if they actually were, I dont like just giving units traits without explanation)? :P
User avatar
Atreides
Posts: 346
Joined: March 30th, 2019, 10:38 pm
Location: A Nude Land

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Atreides »

I just ran a ai test and the outcome was Bull's 8 Serpies 2. Latest version. Noticed a TON of those Nuck's being built.
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Good news everyone: I managed to get some custom AI code working. now slaves will stay next to overseers :)
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

The 0.1.3 update is out! Changelog:
- added custom AI for slaves that makes them stick next to overseers
- buffed the vampire line's melee damage in day form by 1
- enslaved/converted units can no longer move/attack on the same turn as being enslaved/converted
- reverted the nuckelavee price back to the original values
- fixed trample not triggering the pillage/disloyal abilities (or any other death-related events for that matter)
- trample now moves the unit more smoothly (the animation used to move the unit to the original tile for a second)
- removed the "trample!" floating text when using the trample special (as it seems a bit redundant in my opinion)
Overall, more bugfixes, tweaks and balance changes.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Hello everyone. Me/Mechanical decided to run a balance survey. If you have time, please answer it in this thread in this format:

1. What are the main problems of the Khaganate against ogres in your opinion?
2. What changes to units in your opinion will help to even the factions out a bit more?
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
User avatar
Hejnewar
Developer
Posts: 180
Joined: September 17th, 2016, 11:01 am

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Hejnewar »

1. Both factions currently rely on one unit too much.
Chariot for Tumen. Chariot is the stronger one, no counter, half charge damage, that leaves free space to attack again is strong (also this unit is durable enough or should I say that Khagnate just doesnt often have the damage to kill it)(also trampling again with 1 hp with no risk).

Gnoll for Khagnate (slow).

Also it really seems like there is no incentive to not just use leader for combat only after second recruitment. For this reason mancatcher is pretty much just bad on most maps. +8g for village and +50% of g of killed unit might be a bit too skewed towards just rushing (for example faction with 0 income from vills with +100% of g of killed units will still lose to a faction just with vills and normal gold generation).

2. (Will be here hopefully latter. I waited to see if anyone says something anyways.)
User avatar
ForestDragon
Posts: 1607
Joined: March 6th, 2014, 1:32 pm

Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Hejnewar wrote: February 20th, 2021, 11:39 pm 1. Both factions currently rely on one unit too much.
Chariot for Tumen. Chariot is the stronger one, no counter, half charge damage, that leaves free space to attack again is strong (also this unit is durable enough or should I say that Khagnate just doesnt often have the damage to kill it)(also trampling again with 1 hp with no risk).

Gnoll for Khagnate (slow).
Thanks for the feedback.
Hejnewar wrote: February 20th, 2021, 11:39 pm Also it really seems like there is no incentive to not just use leader for combat only after second recruitment. For this reason mancatcher is pretty much just bad on most maps. +8g for village and +50% of g of killed unit might be a bit too skewed towards just rushing (for example faction with 0 income from vills with +100% of g of killed units will still lose to a faction just with vills and normal gold generation).
We are planning to nerf the village gold from 8g to 6g, and on-kill gold from 50% to 40% in the next patch.
Hejnewar wrote: February 20th, 2021, 11:39 pm 2. (Will be here hopefully latter. I waited to see if anyone says something anyways.)
Alright.
My active add-ons: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era
My inactive add-ons: Tale of Alan (1.12),The Golden Age (1.12/1.13),XP Bank (1.14),Alliances Mod(1.14) (all add-ons no longer supported)
Co-creator of Era of Magic
Post Reply