[Large Update] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

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Atreides
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Atreides »

My first try. I didn't play well since I paniced thinking the pillagers would instantly wipe out all village on the tiny 3 player map. So I got my leader trapped away from the keep defending a village from the pillagers.

The new faction which of course I played is better suited to big maps so it's not surprising, although I do need to try again on a small map and do it right. I prefer large maps but for a constantly updated era like this it isn't practical to play a 200 turn game on a 250x250 map (I have some going for months still). Of course a medium map (60x60) should also be a good test although they can take a while too.

Impressions: Strong units (I built the 2 level 2's before I got trapped) but considering they are level 2 perhaps not that impressive. Well when swarmed all level 2's die...

Game 2:
Victory. It was quite an epic battle. I went after the pillagers (3 sides (2ai) 1 of each fac) and crushed them. Then I moved on to the others.
Learned how to use the Witches (at first thought it was a bug that no unit was born then remembered they were in recall). Best use is 1 demon to serve a ahem harem of Witches. 8-) No need to bring them together... oooh. Must be a long one.
The wolf packs were also interesting but I am not sure consume fear was working (enemies were undead a lot so that may be it). Pretty fragile as expected for lev0's. Need a steady flow of replacements to keep the pack up to strength. Levelled one near the end. Just a bigger version. Maybe L2 has a pack leader?
The Primal Spawn was neat too. Love the halo effect of flashes over it. Beautiful. Puzzled by it's special too until I reread it and realized it stores dam taken and doles it out to adj undead, will need to remember to use it as centre of undead task force.
One of the best units was the Barrow Rider though. I levelled several of them and they really were highly effective.
Left the floating text for births on btw, but since it shows in side panel will turn it off in future.

I'll include a replay but it's on a UMC map so you know.
RMM 1v1v1 Gibblesberg Aufzeichnung abspielen.gz
Red MP Maps required
(49.22 KiB) Downloaded 31 times
Oh and no errors to report here.

Game #3:
Scratch that... a screenshot attached (nope screencap fails to save them blech) OK so it was <Lua> recall ai executed for side 1or something weird like that. One per turn when demon+witch on map for ai side. Mostly harmless, but unlikely intended to be displayed to players.
Also the disable birth text does not seem to work.
Another epic fight! This time against the Coven. I am not sure but I suspect one of their leaders they get randomly is the level 3 spawn. It could not have levelled that rapidly (2-3 turns in is when I noticed it). Beartraps plus dark form vampires with their arcane ranged though did that level 3 in pretty fast! Still it was capable of 60 dam in 1 hit!
RMM 1vs1vs1 Feuer im Loch Aufzeichnung abspielen.gz
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(43.06 KiB) Downloaded 29 times
Last edited by Atreides on April 18th, 2021, 10:01 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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ForestDragon
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: April 18th, 2021, 6:08 pm Hi, here are some replays:

For the freelands one, I did trigger some WML warning message though:
2p — The Freelands replay.gz
2p — Sablestone Delta replay.gz
Will watch the replays tomorrow.
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by IPS »

Will have a look into the era, and will give my opinion soon.

Also if content is not yet too massive, I could try spanish translation.
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 1:19 am Will have a look into the era, and will give my opinion soon.
Glad to hear that.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 1:19 amAlso if content is not yet too massive, I could try spanish translation.
Well, as of now we are using our own little macro-based translation system. But once we switch to the normal .po file method, you can translate if you want.
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

The 0.2.1 update is out! Changelog:
- if selected as leader, wild witches can now recruit fear manifestations instead of just fear shadows
- nerfed demon/demon warmonger's melee damage by 1
- buffed ogre grunt's price from 15 to 14
- buffed the prices of some lvl2/lvl3 ogres
- buffed fear manifestation's cost from 20 to 18
- kanavars/demons/barrow riders/nuckelavee now have 30% forest defense (like mainline cavalry do)
- chariots now have 20% forest defense
- buffed dark matron's exp requirement from 100 to 92
- if a captured unit is about to be sold when there a no units from the capturer's side left, the unit escapes the cage instead
- translated Bekh/Bekhlarbekh's descriptions into english
- fixed wml error message when a captured unit is sold while the capturer is dead
- fixed curse of decay not being removed when a unit is enslaved
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by IPS »

Well, made some observations a bit earlier than forestdragon's update.
Still, these updates don't change any of my observations.

This is theorical/on-eye observations, nothing is yet tested, but could realize some blatant broken stuff at here, while other needs more considerations. Always tryharding most optimal situations, sometimes you may find absurd values at situations that aren't shown that rarely, case of ManCatcher's ranged and at most lv2/lv3 ranged can be really devastating... even in a point of previously underrated.
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Alright, will read/respond tomorrow.
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Re: [Alpha] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

My response to your suggestions (some are decent, but most of them I'll have to take with a grain of salt considering the fact you haven't played the era firsthand yet.)
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Bull
Tons of bulk, quite cheap, self-healing 3... mmm... good sponges for dmg.
Ridicously strong and cost efficient againist units at poor defense or in flat terrain.
interesting concept.

Propossal
- Blade resistance from 20% to 15% (same to chariots)


Ogre Chariot
Normally considered as hybrid fighter in enemy's turns.
Can range, charge or do risk-less safe damage with it's no retaliation attacks
So basically this unit has 3 ranges.
Being optional 14-2 charge attack if any situation is worth it.

On lv2 their ranged needs some nerf... I'm sure. Maybe to 7-3 or 5-4 (5-4 hurts less at night [9-3 vs 6-4])
Not 100% sure about these nerfs tbh. Might need some testing to decide about those.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Then, I Can say surely this:
Ogre Burner: Club damage from 8-3 to 7-3
Ogre Scorcher: Club damage from 12-3 to 10-3
(this way their fire mele have a more protagonic role)
In theory they are supposed to be more melee-focused than skirmisher, and nerfing mace to 7-3 would make it a bit too similar to skirmisher's 5-4.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Ogre ManCatcher
Curious concept. They can pick between normal pillage or +Capture, interesting.
---> Potential to be 6-3 [5.625 dmg per strike] impact ranged +Marskman at night vs units with 50% HP
---> Potential to be 7-3 (or) 8-3 [7.5 dmg per strike] impact ranged +Marskman at night vs units with less than 30% HP
(Lv2 is highly OP compared to default standards)

Looking more carefully to special on lv2-lv3 values
4-4 x 1.25 [Night] x 1.25 [Special] = 6.25 dmg per strike at 70% HP Units if night time
4-4 x 1.25 [Night] x 1.5 [Special] = 7.25 dmg per strike at 50% HP units if night time
4-4 x 1.25 [Night] x 2 [Special] = 10 dmg per strike at 30% HP units if night time
10-4 marksman on lv2 ... with such special oh man...

Lv3 comparations are not needed, just lv1 values per hit x2

Something looks a bit wrong here ^^'
Propossal: Extra damage to enemies with under 30% HP lower to +75% (instead of +100%)
Is easier loweiring +special weightness, the less dependant a situational special works, the easier to balance the unit.
Hmmmm, I'm rather reluctant to nerf mancatcher, considering that he's kinda underused by most players.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Ogre Bodyguard
For now, just lower both fire/cold resistances
- Cold to 10% (from 20%)
- Fire to 0% (from 10%)
It has already a tons of bulks (90 HP lv3, with no traits) , doesn't even need improved magical resistances at all.
Sounds reasonable.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmOgre Apprentice
Very cost efficient (much more than Hunters), they do not cost that much health to army but gives an enormous
amount of sustain that some of their don't have. Only ranged option in a bull vs bull matchup.
Apprentices needs more expensive, so per recruited unit not much health is lost, unless increased price.
Healing/Magical is more valuable in larger armies than simplistic 8-2 impact ranged.
(Ogre needs limitations in ranged, as pillage mechanic should be brute-froce/try-harding concept)
If no villages, poison used to be strong counter of Bull's ogres. As poisoning shamans used to be OP.

Proposal:
- Price from 17g to 19g
- Add +Cures (to treat poisoned units)
(Maybe some special that allows this unit not being drained by Tarbyns if facing them or any other ranged drainer)
Not sure about the rework idea tbh.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Lv2 Bull Priest
Would find fine to nerf ranged as it has heals+8, regen+4 and can slows.
- Curse damage from 11-2 to 10-2
- Curse of the bull god damage from 10-1 to 8-1
(there are chargers, which benefit a lot from slows)

Lv3 Ogre High Priest
Brings an insane amount of sustain to its army, let's nerf seriously its ranged damage.
- Curse damage from 17-2 to 14-2
- Curse of the bull god damage from 15-1 to 12-1
(there are chargers, which benefit a lot from slows)
Honestly kinda reluctant to nerf shamans for now.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Lv2 Thunder Shaman
From units with poor defenses at non hills/flat/sand defenses, is the least affected.
Itself has a lot of health, additionally has thunderstrike(10). Find fine nerfing slihgly their ranged.
- Blizzard damage from 11-3 to 10-3
- Lightning damage from 14-2 to 13-2

Ogre Grand Shaman
Have a lot of health, thunderstrike(18) hurts pretty much, good melee attack compared to most mages.
Nerfs forcing this faction to be more melee oriented.
- Blizzard Damage from 12-4 to 10-4
- Lightning damage from 20-2 to 17-2
- Fire resistance from 20% to 10%
- Arcane resistance from -15% to -10%
Not really sure about the damage nerfs tbh, but the resistance stuff is reasonable.


IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmFear Shadow
Cheap scout, that remminds a bit to bats. Synergizes with other Fear-Shadows. Upkeepless at being lv0
To be honest... feels weaker than default bats as it dies much easier.
Maybe... +Aimed (50% version of marksman) for their mele?
For early village capturing, but they're so cost inneficient.
Not really sure about the aimed idea. How about this instead: having "drain and enemy deals 20% less damage on backstab" be changed to "drain and deal 25% more damage on backstab"?

IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmLv3 Barrow Tsar
It has either lv2 ranged and lv2 mele (with optional mele charge) and aura for extra damage for other Barrows
- Spear damage from 17-2 to 15-2
Might consider it.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmKanavar
Incapable of 60% terrain defense. Also 50% flat defense is a great stuff andmore with Calvarymen like resistances.
Good unit to consider if facing Bull faction, as their are low of pierce damage.
Feels overpriced, still, it has uncommon advantages, but being outnumbered is not any of these.
Maybe , reprice to 23g ?
Dead Field Coven have early game issues is 1vs1 smaller maps
Hmmm, about repricing, not sure. It's somewhat intention to encourage more relying on chernavas, and also if you choose dark matron as leader, your recruited kanavars get a pretty decent stat boost.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmKanavar Slasher
9 movement + horsey like resistances + 50% flat defense + berserk .... ehmmm...
Potential Gamebreaker, also depending of AI using 6-5 berserk or 8-1 +slows in arbitrary situations while defending...
Won't deal much damage in retaliation if not free-lancing with berserk at least and lost of ranged on lv2.
Could say... need to see this ingame before judging...
Yeah, might need some changes later.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmPrimal Spawn
Tested [Container of Darkness] Special and it's brutally strong special! A field of 3-4 of these is nearly immortal
if well used. Brutal tank to consider and very underpriced.
In theory, true, but in practice people rarely recruit more than 1-2 of them. And smart players usually don't focus a primal spawn, and kill off adjacent undead first.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Could say that even without their special [Container of Darkness] their price is very fine, maybe slightly more expensive?
Also, remember how strong is recruiting lv2 units againist players with only lv1, and specially in bulky fighters as this one.
We're also not counting +Fearless trait in unit pricing.

Notable stuff to be mentioned here
- Mountains defense from 50% to 40%
- Cold resistance from 50% to 40%
(resistances/mountain-def nerf applied to all levels or forms)
- Price from 28g to 30g (for now)
they don't need that... to be absurdly strong!
Cold/mountain nerfs seem reasonable, but am rather reluctant to nerf price just yet.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmRemove BOTH PRIMAL from leaders options in non heroic versions of the era
They give a brutal advantage, specially on very small maps.
Will consider it.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pm Primal Fury
Their only single strike is frankly strong, would lower a little their base damage as it commonly one hits stuff.
- Rampage damage from 27-1 to 23-1 (unsure as it's not tested, but having high potential to one hit most lv1 units early game, is well... powerful)
a bit reluctant to nerf base damage, as the unit needs to take 34 dmg just to make the rampage's attack be equal in damage to the 20-2 ram.

IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmFind Demons fine, for now, just that weirdly it's worth recruiting more than 1 considering they take a tons of dmg
Well, having them only matter for the chernava synergy would be kinda boring.

IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmNaga Overseer
Roughly , not cost very efficient, but necessary due Slave mechanics.
True, it's not a supposed to be a cost-efficient melee unit, but more of a sergeant-like buffer.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmIf you question me, a good unit for very specific purposes and situations while a crap for other functions.
True, his main use is stalling enemy night rushes.
IPS wrote: April 21st, 2021, 6:41 pmCould say that considering the price increase of Ogre Aprentice, it deservers higher arcane weakness
Decided not to nerf that one too hard, so will leave nuckelavee untouched.
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Hejnewar »

I read throughout that and I can say that these changes would be very focussed on survivals. I dont have strong opinion on L2+ except if they are recruitable atm.

Bull:
They are the weakes faction right now at least at semi-high level of play. Right now only comp that actually stands some chance would be Apprentice, Hunter, Bull with one of chariot. Their units are really not material for nerf.

Tabrynn, Grunt are below mainline level.
Bull, Chariot, Mancatcher and Hunter are at it but Mancatcher is outclassed by Apprentice and Hunter and its ability is not utilised in pvp. (In survis it can be infinite gold.)
Apprentice is fun one its way above mainline level but it is still outclassed by mainline unit. Saurian Augur really is still superior to Apprientice. In both cases nerfing it would probably kill whole faction.

Cowen:
Fear Shadow is very cost efficient, very good 0lvl unit. They are maybe not necessarily working super well with itself but it still is good.
Kanavar is very strong. It's very fast and quite hard to kill it only doesnt deal that much damage. It definitely beats gryphon or horseman (and horseman probably should be nerfed a bit anyway :P).
Primal Spawn is weak in pvp, its too expensive, if you get one you might have hard time getting witches or Demons and both are necessary, if you get more than one you probably have to give up on birthing if you dont have witch or Demon as leader and you will have hard time taking / keeping your villages, also few strong units will just fall to Gnoll supremacy. Their ability is only good vs ai because even if you have 2 player will just focus on one.

They even without birthing would beat Bull easily enough, at least they need birthing to beat Khaganate. :P

Khaganate:
Serpenthead Tarhan - Pretty high cost efficiency, but not as high as Ogre Apprentice - with body alone yes, but taking control over enemy units is just op.
Gnolls are the go to spam unit great and strong generalist to a point where perfect Kgahnate comp is 1-2 Nuckleeves, Gnoll spam, and if you are winning or feeling confident you can get Serpenthead Tarhan.
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by octalot »

Just using the forum thread as a place to attach a file related to IRC discussion. If all the textdomains are changed to wesnoth-gse then putting this file in the English versions' 1The_Great_Steppe_Era/translations/wesnoth-gse/ru.po should make that version show bits of Russian text for Russian players. Not all bits though, I was just testing how easy (or not) it would be to pull the existing text into a .po file.

This didn't get a normal translation, instead it was a brute-force with git grep -h 'TRANSLATE_[A-Z]*' 1The_Great_Steppe_Era/ | sed 's; *{\(TRANSLATE_[A-Z_]*\)[ _]*"\(.*\)" [ _]*"\(.*\)" *};# From a \1\nmsgid "\2"\nmsgstr "\3"\n;' followed by a bit of manual fix-up.

Should at least save some of the work translating the .po after you get the .pot.
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

octalot wrote: April 24th, 2021, 3:05 pm Just using the forum thread as a place to attach a file related to IRC discussion. If all the textdomains are changed to wesnoth-gse then putting this file in the English versions' 1The_Great_Steppe_Era/translations/wesnoth-gse/ru.po should make that version show bits of Russian text for Russian players. Not all bits though, I was just testing how easy (or not) it would be to pull the existing text into a .po file.

This didn't get a normal translation, instead it was a brute-force with git grep -h 'TRANSLATE_[A-Z]*' 1The_Great_Steppe_Era/ | sed 's; *{\(TRANSLATE_[A-Z_]*\)[ _]*"\(.*\)" [ _]*"\(.*\)" *};# From a \1\nmsgid "\2"\nmsgstr "\3"\n;' followed by a bit of manual fix-up.

Should at least save some of the work translating the .po after you get the .pot.
Thanks for the command
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

The 0.2.2 update is out! Changelog:
- added a 'GSE + Default' sub-era (not balanced, and is just for fun)
- added melee attack animations for barrow warden (contributed by Tezereth)
- removed Primal Fury/Primal Patriarch from leader list, but added Primal Spawn instead
- nerfed Ogre Bodyguard's fire/cold resistances by 10%
- nerfed Tempest Lord's fire resistance from 20% to 10%, but buffed arcane resistance from -15% to -10%
- nerfed demons' ranged damage
- buffed barrow warden's axe damage from 7-3 to 8-3
- increase barrow rider price from 16 to 17 (and lvl2/lvl3 had their price increased too)
- fixed the "consume fear" weapon special being active on defense
- fixed healing effects from abilities like container of darkness removing slow/poison when they aren't supposed to
- fixed disloyal units not having their curse of decay removed when changing sides
- minor ability description fixes
- moved the changelogs of 0.1.9 and earlier to a old_changelogs.txt file in the add-on files (to make the add-on description more compact)
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by Atreides »

Sometimes when I use the free slave calc (with all units in attack position already) it says they can be freed but the attack does not even though it's a living non khag unit. Can unseen units in the fog be having an effect or are they counted anyways?

BTW, ***EPIC*** replay possibly coming up (if I can win) of a ***MIRACLE*** comeback by the Bull faction in a 3 side fight!
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Re: [New Faction] The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

Atreides wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:28 pm Sometimes when I use the free slave calc (with all units in attack position already) it says they can be freed but the attack does not even though it's a living non khag unit. Can unseen units in the fog be having an effect or are they counted anyways?
the calculator in theory already counts enemies in the fog. as for the reasons for it not working, I'd need screenshots of the map when it happens, and of the calculator, otherwise I can't exactly be sure what is wrong.
Atreides wrote: April 30th, 2021, 7:28 pm BTW, ***EPIC*** replay possibly coming up (if I can win) of a ***MIRACLE*** comeback by the Bull faction in a 3 side fight!
nice, looking forward to it :)
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Re: The Great Steppe Era (1.14 add-on server)

Post by ForestDragon »

The 0.2.4 update is out. Changelog:
- replaced fear shadow's consume fear ability with backstab, but nerfed moves from 8 to 7
- changed fear incarnate's melee damage from 7-4 to 9-3
- naga punisher now has enslave 1 instead of convert slaves (to make him more useful outside mirror matches)
- added new hit/death sounds for bulls/chariots
- devourer of souls ability no longer gets souls from lvl0 units (as otherwise it was too powerful)
- khagan's presence ability now can no longer buff other khagans
- increased fungus defense by 10% and reduced movement cost by 1 for ogres/bulls/chariots/gnolls/nuckelavee/vampires/fear shadows/barrow riders
- increased fear shadow's exp requirement from 22 to 24, and fear manifestation's exp requirement from 41 to 43
- reduced gnoll ripper's exp requirement from 82 to 70
- reduced ogre hunter's exp requirement from 38 to 37, and skirmisher/burner's exp requirements from 85 to 80
- reduced ogre shaman's exp requirement from 47 to 45, and bull priest's exp requirements from 95 to 90
- reduced ogre foreman's exp requirement from 90 to 85
- reduced greyblade's exp requirement from 41 to 39, and twilight warrior's exp requirements from 95 to 85
- reduced bekh's exp requirement from 85 to 80
- witches' exp from birth is now multiplied by their level (this change is to make getting lvl3/lvl4 witches a bit easier in survivals)
- curse of nature is now removed if the unit changes side (otherwise when enslaved, cursed units became permanently cursed.)
- fixed calculator menus not allowing you to undo moves after using them
- fixed the OOS error with wolves

Also, removed the "[New Faction]" part from the thread's name for now, as it's already been some time since the coven faction's release, so it's not exactly new anymore.
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