More than POISON and SLOW

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BuBu
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More than POISON and SLOW

Post by BuBu »

:: SOME MORE STATUS PROBLEMS ::

Lately I have been take a look that only have 2 status problems in the game that are POISON and SLOW. One exemple of the SHAMAN EVISH and the ORCISH SLAYER that are very important units in their faction. So I saw how it do the game get more interesting and I've started thinking in other status that could put in the game:

:arrow: stun OR embarrass OR paralyse OR frozen OR Stopped (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected couldn't move during 1 turn, but it could attack with no problems. Suggest for units that work with:

- ICE: ice freezes the oponent. EX: fairy fire (elf lv2, 3 or 4).
- IMPACT: the enemy unit get dizzy with the attack. EX For BANDIT (meelee attack) and rock trow of (troll lv2).

:arrow: disarm OR unarm (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected couldn't attack during 1 turn, but it could move with no problems.

For: OUTLAW (meelee attack)

:arrow: doom OR condenation OR collapse (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected will get instant death after 3 (or 5) turns . The problem is resolved after rest in a village or when it cured by other unit.

For: NIGHTGAUNT (and maybe for SHADOW too) (add 1 type attack meelee for it).

:arrow: charm OR berserker OR confusion OR madden (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: 1º option - the unit affected will have 50% chance of attack your own companions (friends);
2º option - the unit affected will attack the unit more next (or nextier i don't remember) of him.

For: females.

:arrow: Weaken OR Debilitate: it reduces all resistences in 10% until the unit be cured in a village.

For: FIRE attacks, the enemy unit get burned with the attack and be a little weak.

:!: The Solve of the PROBLEM created by many status problems:

In wesnoth you can obtain 2 (TWO) status problems at same time, and with all These Status problems it isn't possible one unit has all this problems at the same time (i think this ins't very good and nice).
So my solution is this:

It will continue with 2 status problems per unit that work like "SLOW TYPE" AND "POISON TYPE".

- POISON TYPE: DOOM, WEAKEN.
- SLOW TYPE: STUN, DISARM, CONFUSION.

Ex: If a unit get poison and after someone attack with doom or weaken attack the FIRST status problem it won't be change util it get cured.

This only a started ideia that need some fixes. What do you think about this ideia? :wink:
Last edited by BuBu on July 14th, 2007, 6:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Take a look in the things that i did: 6p - Secret Valley , MAP for SX
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Baufo
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Post by Baufo »

You may want to read this. Why do you think this should be done? We are not going to implement anything just because you think it is a great idea. Please also consider consequences for multiplayer.
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Viliam
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Post by Viliam »

I do not like these ideas, but I also think it could be nice to make WML flexible enough to allow campaign authors create similar effects.

Author would create a "flag" which could be displayed in unit description; some events could set a flag to unit, or remove a flag from unit; some things could be influenced by flag. For example:

Flag: "poisoned"
Set by: attack with special weapons
Removed by: start of turn in village; cure
Effect: at the beginning of turn removes HP

Flag: "slow"
Set by: attack with special weapons
Removed by: next turn
Effect: reduces attack damage

This could be used to implement many already suggested abilities.
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Chris NS
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Post by Chris NS »

I'm beginning to thing we should use a new abbreviation: WINP (Wesnoth is not Pinball).

Every ability or weapon special introduced into Wesnoth introduces new tactics, both for the player operating these units and the player fighting against them. Now, any of the abilities you suggest could work, but if you added four extra abilities for the sake of it without thinking how it would affect gameplay, you would just end up with hordes of random abilities randomly altering the game with very little tactical benefit to the game. You'd end up with something like pinball, where random events beyond your control may be winning or losing the game for you.

Also, don't underestimate the huge tactical effect that seemingly boring alterations to the stats can have. Some units are powerful simply because they have a very powerful conventional attack, or a high defence or resistance. And remember that some of the most tactically intense games have the simplest rules. Who, for instance, would suggest adding special abilities to units in Chess?
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Post by zaimoni »

Viliam wrote:I do not like these ideas, but I also think it could be nice to make WML flexible enough to allow campaign authors create similar effects.

Author would create a "flag" which could be displayed in unit description; ....
This is (almost) doable in WML already, just not elegantly. If nothing else, the C++ backend should be smart enough to allow abusing no-attack weapons as flags.

I haven't tested whether a no-attack weapon would display in trunk. If it doesn't, it shouldn't be a big patch to make it display but keep it unselectable.
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Post by billdoor »

Chris NS wrote:(...)
Who, for instance, would suggest adding special abilities to units in Chess?
The French company Asmodée who created the game "tempête sur l'échiquier" and Steve Jackson Games (Knightmare Chess).

And I quite agree there are enough abilities in the main game, but new era change the game completely anyway, so BuBu might want to create his own era with these new abilities.
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Re: More than POISON and SLOW

Post by kcits »

BuBu wrote::arrow: embarrass OR paralyse OR frozen OR Stopped (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected couldn't move during 1 turn, but it could attack with no problems.
I like paralyse, frozen, stopped for the right creatures
BuBu wrote::arrow: disarm OR unarm (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected couldn't attack during 1 turn, but it could move with no problems.
This would work for a high level swordsman or something...
BuBu wrote::arrow: doom OR condenation OR collapse (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: the unit affected will get instant death after 3 turns. The problem is resolved after rest in a village or when it cured by other unit.
may seem a little too powerful...
BuBu wrote::arrow: charm OR berserker OR confusion OR madden (use the name that you think is better):
What it does: 1º option - the unit affected will have 50% chance of attack your own companions (friends);
2º option - the unit affected will attack the unit more next (or nextier i don't remember) of him.
these could work too, but i like the first ones above... just my 2cents
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Velensk
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Post by Velensk »

There was a spcial called paralyse it turned people to stone. It may have been removed when the lvl with baskalisk was taken out.
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Konrad II
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Post by Konrad II »

Wasn't it petrify rather than paralyse? I don't remember how it could fade.
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Chris NS
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Post by Chris NS »

The petrify ability (or, more accurately, the "stone" attack special) is still there as far as I know. It's just that there are no mainline units that can do this.
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BuBu
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Post by BuBu »

Baufo wrote:You may want to read this. Why do you think this should be done? We are not going to implement anything just because you think it is a great idea. Please also consider consequences for multiplayer.
It´s only suggestion and it isn´t necessary accept all. I suggest and the developer decide whats better. There aren´t no problem if any one agree.

I put this "open" suggestion because i want that other people improve it and say that is good or not. So can make it more consistent.

I only think that will be more interisting if have one or two more situation like poison and slow that will make the game nicier. I know when something is modified affect all the game.

PETRIFICATION: the unit cant attack, move or do anything in the game. This are diferent from paralyse.

EX: Paralyse or frozem ... will be good for ICE attack.
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Post by thissneppah »

BuBu: I think Baufo was referring to the fact Wesnoth doesn’t add features for the sake of having more features. The following quote is out of the link:
irrevenant wrote:To quote Dave: "Any new feature is by default bad. It's bad because it's more we have to write, and more importantly, more we have to maintain and test. We will only implement a feature if it solves some problem that we think is worse than the cost of adding the feature. If you don't tell us about this problem, then we might not notice it for ourselves, and we'll see your idea simply as being 'bad bad bad'."
The point (if I’m not mistaken) is that there has to be a need for the said feature to be put in to the game.
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Post by Haibane »

thissneppah wrote:The point (if I’m not mistaken) is that there has to be a need for the said feature to be put in to the game.
Well, seems so, but imho it's just polite way how to discourage people with too many great ideas :wink:
More likely you must convince developers how much they like your idea even if they haven't noticed it yet. So there must be some good argument why they should love it and "it's great idea" or "it would be nice" is hardly enought, because people comming with "bad idea" or "this would be really ungly, pls code it" are quite rare.
It means something like "if you don't have really good reason why we should bother to do it and if you haven't thought about consequences, don't even bother to tell us about it". Or at least Baufo wanted to say this, imho.
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irrevenant
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Post by irrevenant »

Often the best way to get an idea into Wesnoth is to implement it in a usermade campaign. Who knows, if it turns out to work really well it may eventually be absorbed into mainline.
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Post by Jetrel »

Chris NS wrote:Also, don't underestimate the huge tactical effect that seemingly boring alterations to the stats can have. Some units are powerful simply because they have a very powerful conventional attack, or a high defence or resistance. And remember that some of the most tactically intense games have the simplest rules. Who, for instance, would suggest adding special abilities to units in Chess?
:? You have stated my argument in favor of removing/changing berzerker, almost perfectly. You can make a massively interesting unit even without an attack special, and there are many other attack specials that could achieve an interesting effect while being less damaging to the assumptions of standard gameplay.


Ah, well - water under the bridge.
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