updates of wesnoth

[Roefelkop]

Hi,

I can understand you update your game. But it's stupid we have to update (if we want to play online) from 0.8.11 to 0.9.0 I did this (i have to compile everything) many times on other updates. Now my question. Can you make your versions compatible with others? Or distribute precompiled versions in .tar.gz or .tar.bz?

I find this a really amazing, unbelievable game so I don't want to lose some features because of versioning. That should be very stupid.

Thanks in advance.

[scott]

If unit stats change between versions, then how could you play unless everyone is using the same version? Check out http://changelog.wesnoth.org for a list of things that changed. I can see allowing multiple versions play each other on the mp server if only campaigns had changed or only UI things changed, but then sometimes old versions work and sometimes they wouldn't. It seems simpler to do it this way.

[ott]

Making some assumptions about what Roefelkop is trying to say (unfortunately the posting isn't very coherent): this seems to be a request for the Wesnoth multiplayer server to allow people running different versions of the game to all connect to the same server.

Examining the changelog at http://changelog.wesnoth.org/ there is a long list of changes from version to version. Those changes make different versions of the game incompatible. 0.8.11 is a different game to 0.9.0. Different releases have different units, units with different stats, different terrains, different attacks, and sometimes (as with 0.8.10), there are even changes to the basic way the game does calculations. This is likely going to continue until 1.0 since the game is still being balanced.

If you run a customised server which ignores the version mismatch, you will see dozens of Out of Synch errors every time two people running different versions of the game try to play a game, or even if someone with a different version joins to observe a game that is otherwise perfectly OK. To avoid this, the server is configured to check that the client versions match the server version. If you've played games with a few dozen OOS errors, you will understand the logic here.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hosting their own server for an older versions of the game, but server.wesnoth.org is the server for the current game release. If you want to play 0.8 or 0.8.11, go ahead and set up your own server, and advertise it in the forums.

[Darth Fool]

Making some assumptions about what Roefelkop is trying to say (unfortunately the posting isn't very coherent): this seems to be a request for the Wesnoth multiplayer server to allow people running different versions of the game to all connect to the same server.

Examining the changelog at http://changelog.wesnoth.org/ there is a long list of changes from version to version. Those changes make different versions of the game incompatible. 0.8.11 is a different game to 0.9.0. Different releases have different units, units with different stats, different terrains, different attacks, and sometimes (as with 0.8.10), there are even changes to the basic way the game does calculations. This is likely going to continue until 1.0 since the game is still being balanced.

If you run a customised server which ignores the version mismatch, you will see dozens of Out of Synch errors every time two people running different versions of the game try to play a game, or even if someone with a different version joins to observe a game that is otherwise perfectly OK. To avoid this, the server is configured to check that the client versions match the server version. If you've played games with a few dozen OOS errors, you will understand the logic here.

There is nothing stopping anyone from hosting their own server for an older versions of the game, but server.wesnoth.org is the server for the current game release. If you want to play 0.8 or 0.8.11, go ahead and set up your own server, and advertise it in the forums.

Well, there is an interesting idea buried in there, although I don't know how feasible it would be to impliment it. That is, instead of having the server verify that the client is running the same version of wesnoth as the server, just record the clients version number. Game matching could then be done by version number. Real problems would creep in when the server/client communication changed, for example if the server became more heavyweight in order to support a more secure gaming environment in which it is harder to cheat. I suppose, the server could have a minimum version number that it would be backward compatible with. This sort of thing is almost certainly a desirable feature when the networking code is fairly stable, but given how much things seem to be changing (search for multiplayer in the changelog) from version to version, I don't see anyone implimenting it soon.

[Viliam]

(...) instead of having the server verify that the client is running the same version of wesnoth as the server, just record the clients version number. Game matching could then be done by version number.

This would be nice. However, server should always give warnings (maybe also display changelog) to users having not the newest version. Forcing users to have the newest version, makes them better testers. Maybe there should be some countdown, saying: "You are allowed to play version 8.11 only for 30 days." So users do not have to update always (especially when new windows binaries do not exist yet, but the old ones are already not useable for multiplayer), but sometimes they will have to.

[js138]

What might have lessened the impact would have been a MOTD on the multiplayer server advertising when the next release was going to happen maybe a week in advance. That way the suddenly unable to connect problem isn't inexplicable.

I picked up that there was a new release by reading inbetween the lines in the forum, rather than looking at the wesnoth homepage which I have cause to do very infrequently.

Similarly the disconnect error if you do have a version mismatch should explain what is going on (I confess I don't know what it does do having upgraded before trying, but sounds like it could be clearer).

Mind you playing anything with a version less than 1 is effectively a prolonged beta test so having it always work all the time would be unreasonable too :-)

Keep up the good work etc.

[scott]

Forcing users to have the newest version, makes them better testers.

If Dave were to weigh in here, I think this is what he would say (and has said) is the reason for incrementing the server.

[Roefelkop]

Ok, I just read the changelog and now I understand. But it stays stupid I've to compile everything again.

[aelius]

Of course, the easy solution to your problem is not to play Wesnoth until it's declared version 1.0 - that way you won't have to go to the trouble or recompiling updates.

Everything's a tradeoff.

- b.

[turin]

Ok, I just read the changelog and now I understand. But it stays stupid I've to compile everything again.

Well, many binary copies for different OSs are distributed.... you don't have to compile every time, just download an ~40MB file every time.

[scott]

If the game becomes a new game... how else are you supposed to play it besides compile or download it?

[Doros]

Even after 1.0, I think that it's reasonable to expect that clients have the latest version of the code. Major online games like Halflife and Rainbow Six have the same practice. The difference with those games is that updates are downloaded automatically, and updates are distributed as patches, not a full download.

Because Wesnoth is not tied to any specific platform or distribution mechanism, it's virtually impossible to patch the engine itself like this, but much of the game is run by config files and other data, which could feasibly be updated automatically by patches.

The data and music comprises the majority of the Wesnoth download, and at some point maybe we won't have to download all of them every upgrade. For reference, the Debian wesnoth package is about 1.5MB, whereas the wesnoth-data package is about 14MB. I would guess that a large amount of this comes from images, but most of those don't change between versions, either.

[Sithrandel]

Doros made some good points. Yes it is reasonable to expect users playing the game to have the same version. There is now point in having new versions if they have to remain 100% compatible including bug fixes.

I would agree about having the self-patching code. Your point about the supplementary files is important. The bulk of wesnoth is data files. Having smaller, application only files + built in update of supplementary files could be one route.

Freezing major additions to bundled campaigns and then just distributing patches would be another solution which would keep the updating hassles down. People could update the core game easily (even on a 56k connection).

The other thing is reducing the frequency of updates once 1.0 is released. Standalone applications can benefit from frequent updates. VueScan springs to mind. Users need only download if there is something in the changelog they like. Expecting users to download 40MB+ every few weeks whether or not they view the additions as vital is less attractive

Still, my one attempt at supplying a patch was resounding in its lack of takeup. Perhaps I'll try again with 0.9.1

[Guest]

> Roefelkop wrote:
> Ok, I just read the changelog and now I understand.
> But it stays stupid I've to compile everything again.

Perhaps Roefelkop could not find the compiled file. I’ve been searching for version 0.9.0 and I can’t find a compiled file for windows. Am I missing something obvious? Unfortunately I don’t know how to go about compiling it or what I need to do it. I've compiled my own programs before but I’ve always had a complete setup package to do it all.

Sharker

[Guest]

Sorry, In my last message I meant to say that a complete compiling package had been already set up when I used it.