Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

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West
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Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

Post by West »

Rain wrote:West. Your sound has really been getting more powerful. Production sounds good, cool instrumentation going on as well
    .
    Thank you!
    Rain wrote:I like this recent mix but I would also like to point out that your current reverb might not be doing the music any favors. It seems like the reverb is closing the music off instead of opening it up, to paraphrase someone else. UP UP UP AND AWAY!!!!!
    Well, normally orchestras perform in concert halls, not open air stadiums :P

    Seriously, I know what you mean. Finding a good reverb is hell. I've been reasonably happy with the current one, but I've noticed that it sounds radically different depending on what kind of system I listen to the music on. It sounds great on my modest Logitech X-230 computer speakers (and I normally use those when making music, as most people will probably listen to the songs on similar 2.1 speakers). However, I also have two pairs of standard home stereo speakers (Pioneer and Philips) hooked up to a Sony amp connected to my computer, and the reverb does sound kind of... boxy on both of those. It sounds okay on the Philips pair, but not so great on the Pioneers. The problem is that I don't know which speakers to trust. I really need to get myself a set of clean and neutral studio monitors :/

    Anyhow, I will probably stick to the current verb as long as I'm working on the song, but when the time comes for a final mixdown, I will try using a different one. I have a nice hall IR from a Lexicon PCM90 unit that I might try, but using convolution reverb when still working on the song ain't gonna happen due to the added latency.
    Rain wrote:I've recently acquired a pretty kickarse verb plug in. Easy to use and great warmth sound. But we can discuss this later.
    Yeah, you can always PM me if you have any tips. No reason to turn this thread into a plugin debate :)
    Rain wrote:I'll be sure to critique the piece as it continues to grow.
    Please do. I have neither had time nor felt like creating music for a while now, but I'm slowly getting into it again.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    Rain, and everyone else, does this sound any better? It's the exact same version as before but I'm using a convolution verb with an impulse response from a Lexicon 960 unit. The reverb is admittedly a tad too big and digital-sounding for my taste but... well, just let me know what you think. I have a couple of other nice IRs I can try as well.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by Rain »

    HELL YES. That sounds awesome. IMHO, the piece has a very 'professional' sound to it. I realize you haven't added anything really new to the piece, and it's just touch-work at this point but the details make all the difference in the world. It almost sounds like a different piece with that reverb. All the instruments seem a bit more realistic too.


    Nice
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by yobbo »

    So, I'm gonna be the bad guy here and say: this version is much worse than the original.

    You can apply a gaussian blurr and some bloom to a photo and it will look "soft" and "nice", but if it's a photo of a glacier you will just have a blurry out-of-focus glacier photo.

    This feels just like that. Soft, muddy, warm, mildly oppressive... it lost all of the coldness that it previously had. The instruments are running together, which might feel more cohesive but also feels less crisp and distinct.

    To me, it just plain sounds worse.

    I listened both on my monitor headphones, and on my big speakers which have a pretty flat frequency response.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    Rain wrote:That sounds awesome. IMHO, the piece has a very 'professional' sound to it.
    yobbo wrote:this version is much worse than the original.
    :lol2:

    Yeah, well, so we have one for and one against. Personally I can't decide either way. yobbo, the muddiness you mention comes from the fact that the reverb time is quite long, and the tail makes the instruments bleed into each other. Which admittedly may not be desirable in a tune like this, with a lot of percussion and staccato playing. OTOH, I have to agree with Rain that for some reason this reverb makes *some* instruments sound a lot better and more real. It gives the strings some much-needed lushness.

    But like I said, it's too digital-sounding for my taste. It doesn't sound like a real space, it sounds like an effects box (which it is, after all). So I dunno. I have some more impulses to try, this was just a test. It's very very hard for me choosing a good reverb sound though. After five minutes of auditioning things, everything I try sounds the same :(
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    [PA] NotUncleDave
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by [PA] NotUncleDave »

    well, aside from the fact that my computer is refusing to play .oggs on any player, i can't get that damn violin tune out of my head. i've randomly started whistling it at least 3 times this week- doesn't help that i'm in ireland, of course :P

    it oozes character, more than anything you've posted here before :D
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    [PA] NotUncleDave wrote:well, aside from the fact that my computer is refusing to play .oggs on any player, i can't get that damn violin tune out of my head. i've randomly started whistling it at least 3 times this week- doesn't help that i'm in ireland, of course :P
    Hehe, good to hear. Catchiness is important to me.
    [PA] NotUncleDave wrote:it oozes character, more than anything you've posted here before :D
    Really? Wow, thanks. Maybe I should experiment more with traditional stuff. After all, I have a greater understanding of traditional music than of classicism or contemporary orchestral music.

    Anyway, I've tested the above impulses on some other material, and actually I think the 960 one sounds best (sorry yobbo). Yes, it is kind of artificial-sounding and adds a certain mushiness which kills the definition in rhythmic pieces (like Mountains) -- but it sounds absolutely grand on more mellow stuff. Take a listen to The King is Dead and The Silver Tree on my soundclick page. So I dunno. I'm beginning to understand what Jeremy Soule meant when he said that using a big and not extremely realistic reverb helps smooth out the inevitable seams that come from working with samples. Simply put, I think my modest samples sound way better with the 960 verb. It adds a width and a shimmer that I haven't been able to get with any other reverb, neither algorithmic nor convolution.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by Rain »

    The 960 adds a TON of believability to the strings. I was pretty wowed when I heard the updated version with the Lexicon verb. The strings benefitted the most from the reverb, for sure. It did seem to take care of the 'seams' that are so easy to hear with samples... seriously, how did you do that?

    I really have to strongly disagree with Yobbo. The mix sounded better all around. As I said, the strings greatly benefitted from the verb and I wasn't noticing a lack of crisp-ness with the mix at all. If anything, it sounded more compelling to me, because the action of the instruments and the acoustic space sounded more realistic. Indeed, it sounded digital, but that isn't always a bad thing.

    I was going to actually offer you some of my verb before hearing that, but it looks like have a good thing going!
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    Rain wrote:The 960 adds a TON of believability to the strings. I was pretty wowed when I heard the updated version with the Lexicon verb. The strings benefitted the most from the reverb, for sure. It did seem to take care of the 'seams' that are so easy to hear with samples... seriously, how did you do that?
    I didn't do anything, really. The reverb took care of it ;) It's the exact same send levels on the tracks as with the algorithmic verb I'm normally using. I just replaced it with SIR, loaded the 960 impulse response, set the effect to 100% wet, 0% dry and -- boom.
    Rain wrote:I really have to strongly disagree with Yobbo. The mix sounded better all around. As I said, the strings greatly benefitted from the verb and I wasn't noticing a lack of crisp-ness with the mix at all. If anything, it sounded more compelling to me, because the action of the instruments and the acoustic space sounded more realistic. Indeed, it sounded digital, but that isn't always a bad thing.
    Well, I noticed that the mix does lose some punch with this reverb. OTOH, I'm willing to settle. I'd rather have an unrealistic reverb that makes the samples sound realistic, than a realistic reverb that makes the samples sound unrealistic :P
    Rain wrote:I was going to actually offer you some of my verb before hearing that, but it looks like have a good thing going!
    Thanks. And this is all free stuff, which is kinda cool. SIR plus a freely available impulse response.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by yobbo »

    Ugh. So umm, I have to ask. What are you guys listening to this stuff on?

    Personally I vastly prefer being able to hear the sampling artifacts to having them masked with an unrealistic reverb.

    I'm better with visual examples, so here is my impression of the basic idea as applied to pixel art ;).

    Here is the basic piece. It has pixels, and you can see them. They're not pretty, but that's how it is made.

    Image

    Here is the piece with a fancy effect added to it. It looks just as bad, but in a way which is less obvious. Because we're used to working with pixels, and this doesn't look pixely, it's tempting to think it looks better.

    Image

    Incidentally, after listening to all those copies done with different reverb... it all sounds the same :(.
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    yobbo wrote:Ugh. So umm, I have to ask. What are you guys listening to this stuff on?
    Well I've tried three different sets of speakers and two pairs of headphones. Sounds good on all of them, though maybe a bit bottom heavy on my AKG headphones and Logitech 2.1 speakers. But that's nothing that can't be fixed.
    yobbo wrote:Personally I vastly prefer being able to hear the sampling artifacts to having them masked with an unrealistic reverb.
    Hehe. Well I don't. It's a fact that even a crummy sample can sound good if you add a generous amount of effects and filters to it -- hell, that's how all the classic sample-based synths work.

    Also, I don't know exactly how you define "unrealistic". What would you consider a realistic reverb?
    yobbo wrote:Incidentally, after listening to all those copies done with different reverb... it all sounds the same :(.
    No offense or anything, but if all these markedly different reverbs sound the same to you, why should I trust your judgment on this matter? ;)
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by yobbo »

    Lacking experience actually messing around with this stuff myself, all I can tell you is how it sounds to me. You can take this into account (which I believe in this case you already have), or not!
    West wrote:
    yobbo wrote:Incidentally, after listening to all those copies done with different reverb... it all sounds the same :(.
    No offense or anything, but if all these markedly different reverbs sound the same to you, why should I trust your judgment on this matter? ;)
    West wrote:After five minutes of auditioning things, everything I try sounds the same :(
    :P :lol2:
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by West »

    Haha :D

    What I meant by that was I *can* hear a difference, but I can't tell if it's any better or worse. So let me guess, that was what you meant as well? :)
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    Re: Over the Northern Mountains (Cold :P)

    Post by JAP »

    The link to the last version doesent work anymore, but I've listened to it yesterday.
    And i strongly preferred that version.
    Ive thought :shock: WOW thats was god.
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