Northern Rebirth

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Sly
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Post by Sly »

Taurus wrote:
Theo wrote:Does this mean if I HAD explored that area thoroughly before I shanked Malifor, then he would've reappeared in a random, already explored area?
At the moment, where he appears depends on what type of attack you kill him with. At the time that I wrote the scenario I was relitivley new at WML and that was the only easy way for me to make it rather random. Perhaps I should make it truely random sometime...

But in direct answer to your question - no. He still would have showed up in the same place even if you had explored the area. It just would have been less frustrating for you because you would have seen him. So, get your wetsuits on and wade in - you have a lich to kill. Oh, and I hope you aren't squeemish about floating corpses...
I juste tested it again (I first played it before the other branch existed) and Malifor didn't appear in the water dungeon as he did the first time.
Maybe I killed him with another type of attack so I'll search him, but I found a bug : If I kill him with a Footpad/Outlaw/Fugitive nothing happen at all, no dialogue, no Great Chamber re-opening, etc...
I think this type of unit isn't specified in the WML :wink:
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Post by Taurus »

Sly wrote:
I juste tested it again (I first played it before the other branch existed) and Malifor didn't appear in the water dungeon as he did the first time.
Maybe I killed him with another type of attack so I'll search him, but I found a bug : If I kill him with a Footpad/Outlaw/Fugitive nothing happen at all, no dialogue, no Great Chamber re-opening, etc...
I think this type of unit isn't specified in the WML :wink:
...right. Thanks. Another bug to fix. I'll get to it soon.
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Sly
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Post by Sly »

Just a question : if I remember correctly there was once fencer available at recruitment in Old Friends. Why are they gone ?
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Post by Taurus »

Sly wrote:Just a question : if I remember correctly there was once fencer available at recruitment in Old Friends. Why are they gone ?
Your memory is correct. You also were able to recruit heavy infantrymen, mages, troll welps and young ogres. This I felt was a bit much so I cut back for the sake of general neatness.

About your previous bug, with the outlaw/footpad not triggering a death event for Malifor - I checked into it and there is WML in place for those units. There wasn't for the Fugitive, beacause you shouldn't be able to advance to those - but I added the WML anyway. Do you have a savegame or replay of that bug?
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Truper
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Post by Truper »

Playing under 1.3.8, the level 3 upgrades for both the Outlaw and the Trapper are available - I thought this was a feature. I like it, because it gives more options than Dwarvish Lords.

I also ran into the same, or a very similar, bug as Sly did - I killed Malifor, got no dialog, and had no way to end the scenario. I don't recall which unit I killed him with, however.

I think the dialog that explains why you lose if one of the Liches is killed should be changed. Now that the Troll Whelps and Young Ogres have been removed, the only "creatures" that they bring with them are Gryphons - and it is very likely that you will never have recruited a single one of them. You simply can't afford to until the final showdown, and on that map they are not very useful. The Liches themselves tend not to accomplish all that much, since you can't afford to put them at risk. In fact, I propose that their death be removed as a loss condition altogether, although if one of them dies, his brother should still go back to their valley.
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Post by thespaceinvader »

I agree with that, though i wouldn't call the liches useless - the Ancient one can be relied upon to remove pretty much any one non-leader troll in a single turn at night/in a cave. With the non-ancient one (i can never remember which one's which...) as well, you can pretty much rely on killing a troll warrior, too.

I just don't see that they're valuable enough to be a lose condition, particularly when Krash isn't.
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Sly
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Post by Sly »

Taurus wrote:About your previous bug, with the outlaw/footpad not triggering a death event for Malifor - I checked into it and there is WML in place for those units. There wasn't for the Fugitive, beacause you shouldn't be able to advance to those - but I added the WML anyway. Do you have a savegame or replay of that bug?
I don't have one, but I check in the _main.cfg file and there is a line with

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extra_defines=USE_L3_OUTLAWS
:wink:
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Post by Taurus »

About the Liches being non essential for the campaign - I aggree as well. As a matter of fact, I was planning on changing that for a while now - I just haven't quite gotten to it yet.

About the level 3 outlaws - it wasn't me who added them as a matter of fact. Originally I used them, and I said I would use them if they were added to the mainline. Now that they are there however, I am starting to have seccond thoughts about using them. It was never my intention to have a chaotic army. Furthermore, if we start using level 3 outlaws then the importance of advancing spearmen and arches in later scenarios goes down. It also may throw the balance of Clearing the Mines off sicne an essential factor in beating that scenario is having level 3 dwarves.

Opinions anyone?
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Sly
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Post by Sly »

I used the Lvl3 Outlaw but I still end with more Lvl3 Dwarves, because in mines, they're better :wink:

Ah and I noted another bug : the scepter of justice isn't a magical attack. But maybe it's a design choice :o
Sly
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Post by Sly »

I found what caused that bug : the definition for magical attack has changed.
Now it's

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[specials]
      {WEAPON_SPECIAL_MAGICAL}
[/specials]
Instead of

Code: Select all

special=magical
So the WML in The Pursuit isn't accurate
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Post by Taurus »

Yeah, I noticed that bug but after playing with it for a while I thought it is better the way it is - without it being magical. With the extra hitpoints, speed, lower experince required to level and plus the new attack - having magical on top of that is a bit overmuch imho.

In anycase, I removed the magical command for the sake of general neatness. Thanks again Sly.
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Truper
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Keep the level 3 Chaotics

Post by Truper »

Unless the maps get changed, there is no way the player's army is ever going to be lawful - Dwarves are simply more useful on every single map than the Spearmen or Bowmen lines. The Footpad and Poacher lines can give the Dwarves a run for thier money on the cave maps at least. I find myself using a lot of Footpads, in fact, and being able to level them into Fugitives was a nice surprise in the last couple 1.3 releases. In my current runthrough, I am on the Showdown scenario, and I have 2 Royal Guards, 1 Master Bowman, 1 Longbowman, and no other Loyalist troops of any note (I am pleased that one of the Royal Guards is Zlex. however). On the other hand, I have 9 Dwarvish Lords, 1 Dragonguard, 5 Steelclads, 2 Thunderguards, 5 Fugitives, an Outlaw Ranger, a Huntsman, 2 Trappers, an Outlaw and a Bandit.

Consider:

Infested Caves is a very long scenario, during which the player will recruit, and level up, nothing but the Chaotic units.

To the Mines is short, but does feature large blocks of mountains. Both for that reason and because Clearing the Mines is coming up, the player will tend to focus on leveling some Dwarves, and will probably use some levelled Chaotics from the previous scenario. The only Lawfuls I myself use are Camerin, and whatever I get as a free recruit.

Clearing the Mines is again very long, and again takes place entirely in a cave. No way the player will be recruiting/recalling any lawfuls.

The Pursuit is insanely long ;) , again takes place solely in a cave, and furthermore features hordes and hordes of enemies that are weak to impact - nothing but Dwarves and Footpads for this one.

Old Friend: you start in a cave, the exit of which is flanked by solid blocks of mountains. Loyalists can't move through them, and don't fight well in them. On the other hand, recalling as many Dwarves as possible makes it very easy to survive, and only the turn limit and Rakshas' special reinforcements prevent the player from finishing with him there and then.

Settling Disputes: the player is reduced to 100 gold, and must kill an Ancient Lich residing in a castle surrounded by mountains. Doing anything else than recalling 5 Dwarvish Lords with that paltry hundred would be insane.

Elvish Princess: this is the first scenario in which the player might want to recruit or recall a few Loyalists. I must have done so myself, since I did have a couple at the end of the campaign. But at the end of the day, it is only the Dwarvish Lords that make victory possible.

Introductions: irrelevant, the player gets no recruits/recalls.

Stolen Gold: the only viable strategy for this one is to recruit a castle full of Lords, and immediately head for the mountains where the Drakes will set up camp. Only the Lord's impact resistance, impact retaliation, and excellent defence in mountains make survival against literally hundreds of Trolls possible.

The Eastern Flank: again 100 gold, again lots of mountains, and again clearly the best choice is to recall all those Lords that have been AMLAing up.

Get the Gold - some loyals could prove useful here, but the player's army consists of Dwarves and Chaotics.

The Showdown - not only are there all those mountains in the fortress, but it's time to empty the recall list - which consists of little but Dwarves and Chaotics.

I think having access to the level 3 Chaotic units is A Good Thing - otherwise the outlaw types become an even less attractive choice compared to Dwarves than they already are.
Sly
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Re: Keep the level 3 Chaotics

Post by Sly »

Truper wrote:Elvish Princess: this is the first scenario in which the player might want to recruit or recall a few Loyalists. I must have done so myself, since I did have a couple at the end of the campaign. But at the end of the day, it is only the Dwarvish Lords that make victory possible.
The Liches are pretty much the key of victory. Maybe 1 or 2 Dwarish Lord to ZOC the enemies while standing on castle tiles, but that's enough :wink:
Plus with immersion ability they are the only unit to cross deep water int this scenario (along with the specter, but he lack firepower)
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Post by thespaceinvader »

Krash can if you make him a Flare/Flameheart IIRC. And Gryphons can if you recruit one.
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Sly
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Post by Sly »

thespaceinvader wrote:Krash can if you make him a Flare/Flameheart IIRC. And Gryphons can if you recruit one.
Drakes lack good defense and ther is a lot of orcish slurbow
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