Northern Rebirth

[Edward V Riley]

I think it was in the old thread where I read that people got bored in the first scenario only playing peasants, which prompted you to add the Woodsmen. (Before we go on, I am one of those that like playing the peasants and working on lucky ones to advance). And once the woodsmen were added, people still complained. I recently recalled a thread I did for the Ideas forum on Runescape about medieval weaponry and remembered another weapon used primarily by peasants. A Gudendag. This is what I had wrote there:

The GUDENDAG was a Flemish medieval weapon. "Gudendag" is flemish for "Good Day". The Gudendag was based on a peasant's hammer, but proved effective against armoured knights, and was adapted in many ways, usually with spikes, for extra effectiveness. By puncturing the skin, the Gudendag could be lodged in the skin for a while. Poison was also put on the spikes.

except for the poison, these hammer wielders could be added to give the peasants more variety. Why not poison? It would make the peasants imbalanced. Although it was easy for peasants to actually make an effective poison back then if I recall. They used Horse manure and water.

It's just an idea, but for me... I liked the first scenario.

[Taurus]

I think it was in the old thread where I read that people got bored in the first scenario only playing peasants, which prompted you to add the Woodsmen. (Before we go on, I am one of those that like playing the peasants and working on lucky ones to advance). And once the woodsmen were added, people still complained. I recently recalled a thread I did for the Ideas forum on Runescape about medieval weaponry and remembered another weapon used primarily by peasants. A Gudendag. This is what I had wrote there:

The GUDENDAG was a Flemish medieval weapon. "Gudendag" is flemish for "Good Day". The Gudendag was based on a peasant's hammer, but proved effective against armoured knights, and was adapted in many ways, usually with spikes, for extra effectiveness. By puncturing the skin, the Gudendag could be lodged in the skin for a while. Poison was also put on the spikes.

except for the poison, these hammer wielders could be added to give the peasants more variety. Why not poison? It would make the peasants imbalanced. Although it was easy for peasants to actually make an effective poison back then if I recall. They used Horse manure and water.

It's just an idea, but for me... I liked the first scenario.

It is indeed a very intersting idea. Now that you got me going I am thinking that in a future campaign it may be intresting to create a whole faction with level 0 units... But anyhow, I myself am satisfied with the way it is - having the peasant and the woodsman. Furthermore, in the seccond sceanario you get to recruit thugs, poachers and footpads, and so the peasant and the woodsmen don't get used much later on anyway. So I would rather not spend too much effort on units that don't generally get used much beyond the first scenario.

So, thanks for the great idea, but I don't think it's for this particular campaign

[csarmi]

Hi all!

I have downloaded the 1.3.4 version of BoW and started playing this campaign. I like it. I have some questions, however.

I reached the map "the pursuit" so far. My outlows, poachers and bandits have no lvl3's, is that intentional? I mean they even got some AMLA's so they really can't advance. I read in the forum that they should. Is that true? Because that limits their usability a lot, how am I supposed to face lvl3 units with them?

How to check which version of the campaign I'm playing? Where to get the latest version? (downloading the 1.3.6 development version right now)

If I update my game, will it have effect on my saves? Cause if something's wrong with the campaign right now, there is no way I can get myself to replay those maps. Yea they're cool but took an awfully lot of time and I just cant.

I think I'm playing on the hardest difficulty level, this is what I achieved so far.

I finished the first map with 1 swordsman, 3 longbowmen, 2 spearmen and 5 bowmen and about 500+ gold. I dont understand why people were calling this map so hard and all, was it tougher in earlier versions? I could easily afford recruiting halway through the turns.

The second map was hard and I had to restart twice because I went the wrong direction. I bought a lot of footpads, like two poachers (they advanced) and 2 thugs but I didnt get to use those too much. My longbowmen/master bowmen win the map for me. I send archery detachments north and south coupled with 1-2 footpads and royal guards and held the middle by almost footpads only (they're very good). In the end I was lucky since the trolls helped me a lot and finished in time. My gold was gone fast, however, in the end, I got a lot back, however.

I finished the 2nd map with 1 longbowmen, 4 master bowmen, 6 outlaws, 2 thugs, 3 trappers, 2 royal guards, 1 pikeman (and my hero as a halberdier). BTW, it's funny none of my characters have names... Least I could name them myself more fun. Got 400 gold to start the 3rd scenario

The 3rd map was a walk in a park I crushed them in like 10-11 turns without losses. Got a few levelups.

I finished the 3rd map with 4 thunderers (good experience, I think one of them even made a level), 4 steelclads, 2 high experienced fighters, 5 master bowmen, 1 longbowmen and 5 outlows (lost one). All my humans I cared for reached max level including the great mage of course.

Again, I had about 400 gold to start the 4th scenario and it was hard to do it with not having more than 24 units all the way through. I was down to -200 gold fast. I divided my army into two parts and the southern one got through fast, but the western one had problems after he killed the 1st opponent: EVERYBODY else sent their troops their and my advance halted, I retreated and regrouped the last minute possible (I'd have started losing units otherwise). Anyhow, in the end they got through as well and in the end, holding both storing rooms, I even went +50 gold. The lich in the end was easy. All my dwarves reached max level and two bandits, in the end i could recruit some extra fighters and thugs and lvl them a bit.

I am starting the 4th map with 800 gold. Am I doing good so far? Do I have a chance? Also, is there something about levelling rogue units to lvl3? I cant see how I'll do without those, least it'll be hard.

[shadowmaster]

I am starting the 4th map with 800 gold. Am I doing good so far? Do I have a chance? Also, is there something about levelling rogue units to lvl3? I cant see how I'll do without those, least it'll be hard.

Well, NR now uses the mainline settings, so no Level 3 Outlaws available.

However, as of 1.2, before NR got mainline, it had integrated L3 Bandits (only Bandits) in the unit advancement line. Why was that feature dropped? Having highway men was really effective against skeleton, valuable help in the not-evil branch undead scenarios.

Now that L3 outlaws are now used by TRoW and Liberty, which got mainline. So I don't see it'd be a bad idea to use them in NR for now, at least some units.

[Taurus]

Hi Csarmi

Yep, you are deffinatley doing good. At this rate you shouldn't have any serious difficulties.

About the level three outlaws, I have been recently thinking about leaving them out permanantly. The reason being is that it was never my intention for the main faction in this campaign to be a bunch of outlaws. Not having them go level three makes them usefull enough, but their utility is limited - forcing you to level up your dwarvish and - later on - your human units.

So it's not so much a tactical decsion, as a storyline/atmosphere decision. I am open to opinions on this one though.

[csarmi]

I think it's good they are limited to level 2 (makes a lot of sense).

BTW, shoult Tallin transform into a general or smth like that in the beginning of An OLd Friend? Cause nothing happened for me. He's still a Halberdier.

Hm wait I think I know why, there seems to be a typo in the cfg file (Halbardier). Hm I guess not, that typo is somewhere else that I dont understand. Still its strange.

Also Tallin is having a conversation with HIMSELF right before the start (ie: he's the supporter too).

I'm not so familiar with WML and savefiles, so I can't find error in the programming.

This is the only bad-looking thing I found:

[role]
type=Halbardier, Royal Guard, Master Bowman, Pikeman, Swordsman, Longbowman, Javelineer, Spearman, Bowman, Peasant
role=Supporter
[/role]

It's obviously a typo. I don't have a supporter recalled btw (as for the save). Wait it ISNT a typo and now I KNOW where the typo is: it is written "correctly" in the "if" and that's the problem.

BTW:

This seems to be Tallin in the save right before I won the last scenario:

[name]
advances_to="Swordsman,Pikeman,Javelineer"
advanceto="Swordsman,Pikeman,Javelineer"
alignment="lawful"
alpha="256"
attacks_left="1"
canrecruit="1"
controller="human"
cost="14"
description="Tallin"
die_sound="human-die-1.ogg,human-die-2.ogg,human-die-3.ogg"
ellipse="misc/ellipse"
experience="29"
facing="ne"
flag_rgb="magenta"
flying="no"
gender="male"
gender_id="male"
gold="75"
goto_x="0"
goto_y="0"
hitpoints="43"
id="Spearman"
image="units/human-loyalists/spearman.png"
language_name=_ "Spearman"
level="1"
max_attacks="1"
max_experience="42"
max_hitpoints="36"
max_moves="5"
movement="5"
movement_type="smallfoot"
moves="5"
profile="portraits/Tallin.jpg"
race="human"
recruit="Peasant,Woodsman"
resting="yes"
side="1"
type="Spearman"
unrenamable="no"
usage="fighter"
user_description="Törpvezér"
value="14"
x="8"
y="13"
zoc="1"
[movement_costs]
canyon="99"
castle="1"
cave="2"
cavewall="99"
deep_water="99"
forest="2"
fungus="2"
grassland="1"
hills="2"
mountains="3"
sand="2"
shallow_water="3"
swamp_water="3"
tundra="3"
village="1"
[/movement_costs]
[defense]
canyon="80"
castle="40"
cave="60"
cavewall="60"
deep_water="80"
forest="50"
fungus="50"
grassland="60"
hills="50"
mountains="40"
sand="70"
shallow_water="80"
swamp_water="80"
tundra="80"
village="40"
[/defense]
[resistance]
arcane="80"
blade="100"
cold="100"
fire="100"
impact="100"
pierce="100"
[/resistance]
[variables]
[/variables]
[status]
[/status]
[attack]
damage="7"
icon="attacks/spear.png"
name="spear"
number="3"
range="melee"
type="pierce"
[specials]
[firststrike]
description=_ "First Strike:
This unit always strikes first with this attack, even if they are defending."
id="firststrike"
name=_ "firststrike"
[/firststrike]
[/specials]
[/attack]
[attack]
damage="6"
icon="attacks/javelin-human.png"
name="javelin"
number="1"
range="ranged"
type="pierce"
[/attack]
[modifications]
[trait]
female_name=_ "female^resilient"
id="resilient"
male_name=_ "resilient"
[effect]
apply_to="hitpoints"
increase_total="10%"
[/effect]
[effect]
apply_to="hitpoints"
increase_total="3"
[/effect]
[/trait]
[trait]
female_name=_ "female^intelligent"
id="intelligent"
male_name=_ "intelligent"
[effect]
apply_to="max_experience"
increase="-20%"
[/effect]
[/trait]
[/modifications]
[/name]

This is obviously fake, at least it's looking pretty strange, because he actually is a Halberdier with 85 hp doing 15/3...

[csarmi]

Yay I fixed it
Now I have a supporter recalled too. I changed Halberdier to Halbardier in the apporpriate if tag. I still dunnióo where the confusion came from, something was strange about Tallin in the saves and also it confused my units somehow.

I can send over the cfg files and the saves if needed.

[Taurus]

Yeah, I noticed that problem too, but thanks for pointing that out. Anyhow, to make a long story short, it has been fixed, so in the next release, it will be in there

[csarmi]

I've got problems with the Stalrag scenario (setting the disputes).

First of all, Stalrag can't be saved unless you save/reload till he survives 2 troll hits (36%). It seems no matter what I do, he goes for the southeast village and gets killed by the - unreachable - troll. Yes that troll can be killed if Camerin finishes the lich in one turn (24% chance, actually happened for me), but then you need to keep the northern ogre alive who seems to be just as much of a threat for Stalrag. It shouldn't be a guessing game...

Second, in my scenario, that stupid dwarf goes to suicide WITHOUT recruiting anything, then he stays in that village indefinitely it seems, he don't want to buy units. Yes for some tries (I save/reloaded) he DID buy units but then he got killed all the time. After like 6 reloads or so Stalrag and an ulfserker survived, Stalrag sat there forever while the unit (low hp) went for villages, ofc without any sense of danger, putting his 9 hp unit into the range of an Ogre so I needed to save him again, stupid.

Third, what I don't like in other scenarios either that the storyline units have no characterisctics (abilities). At least most of them. Not even 'loyal' is described for me though they do seem to be loyal. That sceptre is intelligent at least, which is a bless because AMLA's are very useful for him.

Fourth, what about giving those injured units some experience? It doesn't have to be much, but it'd be much more realistic. It's just a cosmetical change really, but I'd really enjoy it.

[hagabaka]

I've got problems with the Stalrag scenario (setting the disputes).

First of all, Stalrag can't be saved unless you save/reload till he survives 2 troll hits (36%). It seems no matter what I do, he goes for the southeast village and gets killed by the - unreachable - troll. Yes that troll can be killed if Camerin finishes the lich in one turn (24% chance, actually happened for me), but then you need to keep the northern ogre alive who seems to be just as much of a threat for Stalrag. It shouldn't be a guessing game...

Second, in my scenario, that stupid dwarf goes to suicide WITHOUT recruiting anything, then he stays in that village indefinitely it seems, he don't want to buy units. Yes for some tries (I save/reloaded) he DID buy units but then he got killed all the time. After like 6 reloads or so Stalrag and an ulfserker survived, Stalrag sat there forever while the unit (low hp) went for villages, ofc without any sense of danger, putting his 9 hp unit into the range of an Ogre so I needed to save him again, stupid.

Since you're talking about using Camerin to finish the lich, you probably didn't get two white magi from the scenario "The Pursuit". Having them will make this turn, as well as the rest of the campaign much easier. See the walkthrough for how to obtain 5 characters (although you already found the spectre) and an item from that scenario.

[csarmi]

I suppose you didn't read my post properly. Of course I have the Great Mage and the two White Mages. That's how I can kill 2 (3 if lucky) units there. But the only way to kill the troll is to finish the lich with ONE mage, kill some unit southeast THEN kill the troll southeast, but then the Ogre to the north stays alive which is problematic, because:

- you leave that stupid dwarf unprotected (how to guess he shall move southeast?)

- you leave the prison unprotected

- storywise

Otherwise the map was very easy, the AI had some griffins and trolls, but not much, I won it turn 8 or so (that's how long it took my troops to get there)

I killed that Orc Soivereign in the map before, btw, only it didn't do me any good...

[Truper]

What you need to do is use the 2 White Mages to kill the Lich, then move Camerin to the village Stalrag would take. Since he can't get to the village, he stays where he is, where he gets healed by the White Mages. If you can't kill the Lich with the Whites, you have to finish him off with Camerin, and hope the Troll misses - there's a good chance you will have to reload.

You don't really need to guard the prison, since the AI doesn't understand what it does. All you have to do is make sure that you don't leave a unit where it could be attacked from the prison hex.

[Edward V Riley]

I enjoyed the campaign. I know some will complain about the long battle scenarios and their length...but, for me, give me the long drawn out battles. To hear some people complain, you'd think every battle in "medieval" era times was platoon action. There's plenty of short scenarios they can play already in Wesnoth.

Was Tallin supposed to transform into a leader type unit? I had him as a halbrieder the entire campaign. Oh well.

The drakes inclusion prompted me to play the Drake campaigns lately. They are without a doubt, the hardest faction to play.

Glad you liked the Gudendag idea. One weapon, who's name I can't remember, that was popular among peasant levies (A large majority of medieval armies were peasants. Yes, they had knights, but these were expensive to maintain) , was a wooden spear with a sling attached to one end. In Dragonlance it's called a hoopak. You simply plant the spear into the ground at times and use the sling part for ranged, and the spear for melee. Staves, not magical ones, were often used as well by peasants. A good example of that is of course Little John in Robin Hood.

I don't understand why people are against the level 3 rogues. Is the argument that they wouldn't have recieved the training in their careers? Rogues/thieves learn a lot of advanced abilities in the course of their careers, mostly from simple sharing with their fellows. A hunter, for instance, would learn to use a net with his repretoire over time(I can see them adding a net attack with a slow function, call them Master Hunters).

[shadowmaster]

Tallin is supposed to upgrade in Old Friend from a non-leadership-able unit to a leadership-able unit of the same level, no matter what upgrade path you chouse.

I never had problems with him being Swordsman or Royal Guard. Perhaps this is something that wasn't thought about when writing the upgrade code? (the possibility of upgrading to something else than swordsman)

[Taurus]

I've got problems with the Stalrag scenario (setting the disputes).

First of all, Stalrag can't be saved unless you save/reload till he survives 2 troll hits (36%). It seems no matter what I do, he goes for the southeast village and gets killed by the - unreachable - troll. Yes that troll can be killed if Camerin finishes the lich in one turn (24% chance, actually happened for me), but then you need to keep the northern ogre alive who seems to be just as much of a threat for Stalrag. It shouldn't be a guessing game...

Second, in my scenario, that stupid dwarf goes to suicide WITHOUT recruiting anything, then he stays in that village indefinitely it seems, he don't want to buy units. Yes for some tries (I save/reloaded) he DID buy units but then he got killed all the time. After like 6 reloads or so Stalrag and an ulfserker survived, Stalrag sat there forever while the unit (low hp) went for villages, ofc without any sense of danger, putting his 9 hp unit into the range of an Ogre so I needed to save him again, stupid.

Thanks for your imput Csarmi. This scenario is next in line for some changes, and this frustrating little chain of events will get fixed

Third, what I don't like in other scenarios either that the storyline units have no characterisctics (abilities). At least most of them. Not even 'loyal' is described for me though they do seem to be loyal. That sceptre is intelligent at least, which is a bless because AMLA's are very useful for him.

Hmmm, if I remember correctly, this point has been brought up before. I aggree, I probobally should give them traits...

Fourth, what about giving those injured units some experience? It doesn't have to be much, but it'd be much more realistic. It's just a cosmetical change really, but I'd really enjoy it.

A bit of a low priority, but sure, I'll add some experince when I get around to it.

And once again, about the Halberder not changing into a general, it was a bug, but has been fixed in the latest SVN version. When the next release of Wesnoth comes, this fix will be included.