farsight ability for units

[playtom]

i know having abilities that cancle other abilities is somewhat rejected as posted in the frequently opposed ideas, and i also don't know if this kind ideas have been opposed in the past, but i'll give it a try, even if it's rejected, i can let it go.

the "farsight" ability allows you to detect enemy hiding using the ambush or submerge, possibily any kind of similar hiding abilities. this is not like the idea of blocking drain/heal/poison, those ones are canceling out possible damage or healing for units, the farsight ability simply expose enemy units that are hiding, it doesn't create alot of complexity to the game, because its unlikely for someone to oppse this idea and create a new ability like"anti-farsight" or "super ambush" because there's already ambush ability out in the game. besides, farsight don't mean to inflict necessary damage on the enemy, just simply avoid a death trap for you and make the enemy miss their opportunity sometimes.

just saying it and not doing anything would definitely get this idea rejected, therefore i've come up with a few twists as well as how can it be implemented and why:

1.farsight ability only detect enemy units in certain distance. i've come up with 2 possible twist for this:
A)at lvl one, the unit detects any invisible enemy unit within 3 hex, 4 hex for level 2, 5 hex for level 3 and so on...or make them all the same.

B)instead of detecting units by using the measure of hexes, which is not fair, we could use the measure of movement point, for example, unit A is only 3 hex away from unit B, between them is dozen hexes of cave walls, using the movement point to measure, unit A or b cannot detect each other if one of them are invisible, due to the fact that it's impossible to move over the cave walls, which make sense in a way of logic.

2.other possible twists

A)only detect limited amount of enemy units.
B)you cannot detect any unit adjacent to an unit exposed by the farsight ability. or expand the radius to 2, 3, etc. any way you feel the best.
C)units with both the farsight ability and an hiding ability(e.g ambush/submerge) cannot be detected by other units with the farsight ability. however i don't think such unit will even be even created ever.
D)farsight units have -10% less HP. but they can see farther through terrain than normal units. the idea comes from the trait "fast"

3.having this ability would create a unique and interesting strategy in wesnoth, in wesnoth as of now, it's virtually impossible for a unit to detect invisible units unless adjecent to or they've attacked and exposing themselfs. now with the farsight ability in use for some units, a unit with the ability plus fairly high movement points may detect invisible enemy before they can see you, which gives you time to prepare an ambush on the enemy, now the hunter becomes the hunted. however, you don't get full immunity, if we turned the table around, the invisible enemy have high movement, they can move onto a fairly hard to reach terrain such as mountain, or deep water(for mermans and so), and continue on with the plan, that means you won't alway miss out on the perfect ambush opportunity.

[Kestenvarn]

Is there an ability that lets units see hexes beyond what they can move?

If not, Farsight might be a good name for that - could make scouts with benefits other than being mounted.

the idea comes from the trait "fast"

yeah no one likes that trait, in terms of balancing

[playtom]

sure...i just don't have a decent name for this ability yet, and i've edited my post to include that unit may see beyond they can move like you said.

anyone have a better name they'd like to suggest?

however, the important thing is to focus on whether the community will reject my idea or not. if my ability pass on accepted, we'll then discuss the names after.

[MDG]

sure...i just don't have a decent name for this ability yet, and i've edited my post to include that unit may see beyond they can move like you said.

anyone have a better name they'd like to suggest?

Truesight? Clearsight? Suresight? Eaglevision?

however, the important thing is to focus on whether the community will reject my idea or not. if my ability pass on accepted, we'll then discuss the names after.

The community, whatever some members of it might like to think, is irrelevant regarding the actual decision making process for mainline so I wouldn't worry about it 'rejecting' anything. It's the development team who'll make the call, specifically the game play developers I would have thought. All the community can do is try and help point out gaps, pitfalls, pro's and con's, etc... (I am assuming, as you raised the arms race FPI issue, that this is proposed for mainline? If not, and it's for UMC, then forget about the FPI as it is aimed at suggestions for mainline. You can do what you want with UMC).

[playtom]

well i am proposing for mainlines. that why i pointed out it will likely be rejected, just want to see if anyone suggested of this idea yet. however, i just think that an ability like this might add further interest to the game, for the arm race problems, it's not likely as serious as adding a new ability to block poison, which could make the poison attacks much less effective. this "farsight" ability, might as well be only a supportive ability for the troops, not dealing damage to enemy nor preventing enemy from doing anything but invisible, it's kind like a type of advanced reconnaissance.

if that idea doesn't seem to be good, i can at least say to make the farsight ability seeing farther than the unit could move

[MDG]

well i am proposing for mainlines. that why i pointed out it will likely be rejected, just want to see if anyone suggested of this idea yet. however, i just think that an ability like this might add further interest to the game, for the arm race problems, it's not likely as serious as adding a new ability to block poison, which could make the poison attacks much less effective. this "farsight" ability, might as well be only a supportive ability for the troops, not dealing damage to enemy nor preventing enemy from doing anything but invisible, it's kind like a type of advanced reconnaissance.

Emphasis mine.

This effectively already exists, just switch not_living=no to not_living=yes in the WML for any given race and voila! they are immune to poison. Undead and mechanical units already have this switched on (mechanical covers the ship units in some of the campaigns). I wouldn't worry about immunity to poison with regards the arms race issue as there's almost a whole faction in default era which is immune to poison and has been for a long time (Undead...).

if that idea doesn't seem to be good, i can at least say to make the farsight ability seeing farther than the unit could move

Since you brought this up... How about the possibility of adding sight points directly into the Unit WML as a new base stat? Make it optional and set the value to the same as the unit's movement points by default (i.e. if sight points aren't explicitly specified for the unit then it has the same sight points as it's movement points). This makes it backward compatible. Content maintainers/creators can then set the sight points to be different to the movement points where they feel it is appropriate.

It would likely need the pathfinder functions in the game engine re-visited and split up so that some of it works from the sight points unit stat but, much of the necessary code might already be there (hopefully).

May also need the new unit stat added into the Theme WML and then added into the Default Theme.

For the greatest level of detailed control, there could be two new unit stats, one for fog_sight_points, one for shroud_sight_points. Having two may not be relevant for standard MP and most units would probably have the two set to the same anyway but, leaves options open for creativity and innovation on the scenario/campaign side of things.

[Viliam]

In my opinion adding abilities which have no other effect than cancelling other abilities, is wrong. It means that the ability is useless unless enemy does what you expect him to do. Then again, because enemy knows that you can have this counter-ability, he will probably not want to use his ability. But then... this leads to some circular reasoning. It is trying to guess what the opponent will do. I should use invisible units only when opponent will not recruit clearsight units.

To some degree it happens with other abilities too. For example poisoning is better when your opponent does not have cure poison. But even if he has, the poison is not completely useless (the poisoned unit cannot be healed in this turn). Unfortunately against undead it is useless. What I am trying to say is that there already are some counter-abilities, we should not add more. Especially not those whose only purpose is to counter another ability.

[irrevenant]

Generally there's little point to proposing an ability idea outside the context of an idea or faction.

There's another discussion on how to give the Great Mage more unique magical flavour. This idea seems like it would be a good fit. I can't see it being too disruptive on an L4 unit, especially one that can't see/move all that far.

I largely agree with Viliam that adding an ability that solely exists to counter another ability is lame. ie. It's useless unless the opponent recruits stealth units. Exception: Stealth units tend to have benefits beyond their stealth. eg. Undead players aren't going to stop recruiting skeletons if an enemy unit has truesight, and Rebels players will still recruit Woses. Like the Poison/Regeneration analogy it blunts the value of the unit rather than destroying it.

The worst case scenario is that you face Northerners who have no stealth units and the ability is useless. That's why I'd like to see it used as a 'flavour' ability on a rare unit like the Great Mage rather than as the raison detre of a unit.

P.S. I agree that "Truesight" is probably a better name, though if it ends up on the Great Mage "Magesight" would make sense too.

[playtom]

ok i guess case closed. i don't have much confidence in my idea from the start.

but what about the point to make the ability to see farther than u could move? like MDG said, adding sight points to the unit would be a solution?

[irrevenant]

ok i guess case closed. i don't have much confidence in my idea from the start.

I don't think it's a hopeless idea, but there are a limited number of situations where it would be viable, IMO. As mentioned I think it would be okay on the Great Mage, for example.

but what about the point to make the ability to see farther than u could move? like MDG said, adding sight points to the unit would be a solution?

This has been suggested before. It raises similar concerns - it's hard to balance a unit with an ability that becomes completely worthless when the shroud and fog options are turned off yet is quite valuable the rest of the time.

[Kestenvarn]

This has been suggested before. It raises similar concerns - it's hard to balance a unit with an ability that becomes completely worthless when the shroud and fog options are turned off yet is quite valuable the rest of the time.

Well it seems to me rather similar to water units in a multiplayer match with no water.

[MDG]

but what about the point to make the ability to see farther than u could move? like MDG said, adding sight points to the unit would be a solution?

This has been suggested before. It raises similar concerns - it's hard to balance a unit with an ability that becomes completely worthless when the shroud and fog options are turned off yet is quite valuable the rest of the time.

1) Could we get away from considering the sight points suggestion as an ability please? It's a proposal for a new optional base unit stat for all units. This is my fault for dropping it into the middle of this thread rather than starting a new one and linking to it. I apologise.

2) I did a search on "sight points" and got no results, any links to previous threads with the same proposal would be much appreciated.

3) My understanding of balancing by the MP devs is that they only balance for specific settings e.g. 70% experience. I was of the belief that one of these assumptions is that they only balance for fog of war on? I could be wrong though, and if so, again I apologise. If I am right, then it would actually give the MP devs another stat to use to balance default era in different ways and add flavour to some factions if they wanted to. I'm not sure how significant it could prove to be, might be usable in fairly subtle ways with some units and/or factions.

4) It would also add more options for creativity within campaigns and the UMC side of things. Even if not used for default era, which it wouldn't need to be if the MP devs aren't interested, it's a shame not to have the flexibility for UMC.

[Angry Andersen]

I fully agree with irrevenant: It's a nice option for the lvl4 mage, which has not been proposed before. Magesight is also a good name.

I do not think this ability is fitting for any lvl1 unit. Submerge and ambush aren't exactly the most powerful and frequently used abilities (there currently is another thread on this). Having units easily available (which a lvl4 mage is not) that cancel these abilities even further weakens them.

The range should be dependent on movement, otherwise very odd cases become possible, in which a unit uncovers an opponent further away than he can normally see.

Btw, all AI units already have the proposed ability!

[MDG]

2) I did a search on "sight points" and got no results, any links to previous threads with the same proposal would be much appreciated.

Correction: just managed to find this thread by Turin that seems very related to what is being discussed with both the farsighted ability and the sight points unit stat. Indeed, sight points would probably resolve the issues Turin was trying to overcome...

[irrevenant]

This has been suggested before. It raises similar concerns - it's hard to balance a unit with an ability that becomes completely worthless when the shroud and fog options are turned off yet is quite valuable the rest of the time.

Well it seems to me rather similar to water units in a multiplayer match with no water.

But Farsight is only one element of a whole. If a unit is 10% useful (such as a Merman on a map with no water) you just wouldn't recruit him - he's not worth the cost. But a unit that's 90% useful (eg. a Farsighted Footpad on a map with no shroud/fog) is a lot harder to assess the value of. Is he still worth recruiting or not? If the answer is yes, you really need his scouting ability, then aren't you still overpaying for the unit ('cos his cost includes the Farsight ability), and won't that count against you over the course of the battle?

Note: I'm not saying that Farsight should be added to the Footpad, that's just an example.

1) Could we get away from considering the sight points suggestion as an ability please? It's a proposal for a new optional base unit stat for all units. This is my fault for dropping it into the middle of this thread rather than starting a new one and linking to it. I apologise.

Really? It seems like it would be much more elegant as an ability. The vast majority of units would see the standard distance (currently set to equal their move distance). An ability seems a better way to mark exceptional units.

OTOH, if you envision sight distance varying from the norm in a large number of units, I'd say that's an additional layer of complexity that Wesnoth doesn't need. Players already have a lot to remember; having to also remember the relative sight distances of dozens of units seems a case of too much information to me.

P.S. Yes, it would've been cleaner discussing it in a different thread. It's probably too intertwined to split out now, though.