Someone dare to beat me with an undead

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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Noy
Inactive Developer
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Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Post by Noy »

Hi there.

First off, I suspect you're playing V.1.0.2. I think most people would completely disagree with you on the Ghost is a weak unit, since that unit now has drain and is considered one of the most powerful units in the Undead faction.

Secondly, the bat is supposed to be a cheap scout unit, somewhat more agile and cheaper, and far less effective than other scouts. Its been rebalanced since 1.0.2 as well so your comments are somewhat out of date.

Moreover I suggest that you play the game for a couple of months before you make balancing suggestions, if you want to be taken seriously. Most people who do so, come back to tell us several months to ignore their previous points because they didn't understand the dynamics of the game, and how balancing is carried out. Crying wolf about balancing tends to make the village devs less receptive to your point of view.
Tippsey
Posts: 226
Joined: May 19th, 2005, 4:41 am

Post by Tippsey »

*coughs a bit*
Wow odd to see this old of a thread reopened. Hmm I'd have to agree with Noy the ghost is no longer in any way weak. I'd also have to say undead are not a blitz faction. Blitz are better with other factions. Like the old Saurian blitz.
May the drakes bloody kill you all.
JoeDuncan
Posts: 5
Joined: March 6th, 2006, 7:36 pm

Post by JoeDuncan »

Yes, I am playing version 1.0.2. It's the latest stable release no?

Anyways, it's the one that's compiled on Gentoo with "emerge wesnoth". I'm not in the habit of fiddling with unstable or development releases, nor am I about to begin doing so. Until 1.1.1 becomes the official release, my comments stand.

Also, if I were you, I would not make the assumption that since someone is posting on this forum for the first time, that they have never played the game before. I have been playing it casually for a couple of years. I have played several campaigns and I enjoy a quick game against the AI every now and then. I've had it installed on my system since 0.6.99.<something>

I must admit that I haven't played MP against other humans before, and the dynamics I can assume are different. However, my observation that the Undead faction seems a little underpowered (I'm not saying grossly underpowered here) is not just an impulsive "shot from the hip", it's a generalization I have made from years of playing.

Not to mention that there are two things that support my position:

1) there are several other threads and comments throughout this forum from other players who are more "hardcore" than I that also say the undead are underpowered
2) the power of the ghost *was* increased for version 1.1.1!
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JW
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Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

Yuo're right. The Undead were underpowered; this is why they were given some boosts in the unstable branch to test their balance. If the changes are deemed acceptable then they will make it into the next stable release of the game. For that you will have to wait. Arguing over the balance of a setup that is currently out-of-date is really a moot point - this is why you have been referred to the current 1.1.1 stats.
JoeDuncan
Posts: 5
Joined: March 6th, 2006, 7:36 pm

Post by JoeDuncan »

I don't think it's a moot point precisely *because* the changes have been made in the unstable branch to test them out.

Since they are in the unstable branch, then they are not fixed in stone, they are flexible and may still change. It's at this stage where argument about the balance of the current stable release is the most appropriate.

Also, I don't believe that the current stable version can be called "out-of-date". My car isn't out of date because it's not a 2008 model.

It may not be the case for the majority of the hardcode Wesnoth players, I don't know, but for most software, most users use the current stable version and only developers or people who absolutely must have the newest features/bug fixes use the unstable version. Again, I don't know what the standard case is with the majority of Wesnoth players, as this is the first time I have posted to these forums.

I don't think that denigrating someone for using the current version, saying their comments are irrelevent or out-of-date because such-and-such feature is currently in testing, or making assumptions about their experience with the game are constructive ways to build a gaming community.

To sum up:

1) current != out of date
2) comments on experimental features != moot point
3) not feeling welcome

Cheers!
Noy
Inactive Developer
Posts: 1321
Joined: March 13th, 2005, 3:59 pm

Post by Noy »

Joe

I wouldn't take it too personally but you have to realize something, this forum is for serious proposals, by people who have spent alot of time playing and working on the game. Its not meant to be a place were we are nice to new players because its not a forum area for them.

You may have thought that you had a valid idea, but like 70+% of balancing proposals on here, its either because the person hasn't played the game enough and doesn't have the feel of the system or a complete knowledge of the game... as you have. Saying that you didn't know that the unit balance is changed in V 1.1.1 is this type of mistake, even if you're technically right. We go through alot of these threads, and its tiring. I'm somewhat encouraged though to see people who used to do what you have just done, (JW) understading the balance and able to explain it to others.

However you being confrontational about it and trying to defend you point of view, when we told you right off the bat what was wrong doesn't really make anybody more understanding, and tends to try people's patience.

One last point. Back in the days of V0.X we used the system that had some bugs but it was for the most part stable. Even though there are "development versions" they are usually pretty stable. I'd encourage you to try it out.
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Dragonking
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Joined: November 6th, 2004, 10:45 am
Location: Poland

Post by Dragonking »

JoeDuncan wrote:Also, I don't believe that the current stable version can be called "out-of-date". My car isn't out of date because it's not a 2008 model.
But your car is old right?

And will you complain to manufacturer that engine has this and this problem? You can, but he will answer that it is already fixed in 2008 model because he fixed it in 2006 model - and you had no idea because you even didn't tryed the 2006 version.

This is true, but think about 1.0.x as finished, complete product which won't be changed. From balancing point of view, your version is out of date.

Can you please tell me, what is the point of complaining about thing that already is fixed? (please do not say 'it isn't fixed because it is development' - it isn't true - will you say that bug in 1.1 still exist because developers can revert changes?)
JoeDuncan wrote: To sum up:
1) current != out of date
2) comments on experimental features != moot point
So... don't comment because it can change eh? And you think why things change? Because of feedback. Developers can't check 1000000+ factors and they need feedback to make game better. Since 1.0 can't be better (closed development), and 1.1.x can be better, we appretiate feedback from users who use 1.1.x version.
JoeDuncan wrote: 3) not feeling welcome
Cheers!
Unfortunately I can't help you with this one... I would advocate trying to learn about community , before trying to argue here.
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JW
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Joined: November 10th, 2005, 7:06 am
Location: Chicago-ish, Illinois

Post by JW »

JoeDuncan wrote: I don't think that denigrating someone for using the current version, saying their comments are irrelevent or out-of-date because such-and-such feature is currently in testing, or making assumptions about their experience with the game are constructive ways to build a gaming community.

3) not feeling welcome
If you can point me to the sentence where I denigrated you then please quote me. I'm trying to work on my manners.

Thanks!
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