Comparison discussion: Royal Guard, Warlord, Champion, Draug

[Zhukov]

This is my attempt to establish a seperate thread for the debate started here.

Also:

Elvish Champion: 12-4 melee
Royal Guard: 12-4 melee
Draug: Just got buffed to 12-4 melee
Orcish Warlord: Just got nerfed to 12-4 melee

Hey, whatever happened to preserving factional diversity?

So, my suggestions/ideas regarding the stats and balancing of these units.

Current HP values for these units are:
Royal Guard - 75
Warlord - 72
Champion - 70
Draug - 66

Having the Warlord and Champion seperated by only 2 HP is just plain 'silly'. Having the Royal guard above both of them is also 'silly'. The Champion is somewhat 'silly' because with 70 HP he is far above all the other Elves and has more as much HP as a Troll Warrior and more then an Iron Mauler! Seriously silly! (The words which would better put my point across are frowned upon.)

Ranked in order of durability(HP), I believe they should go something like:
1- Orcish Warlord: Orcs are supposed to be superior in brute strength and physical toughness, and not just in my imagination. Read the description of the Grunt.
2- Royal Guard: Humans are the 'middle ground', neither especially tough nor fragile. Also the Royal Guard has some resistances. (For some reason he has 20% against blade and impact, but 0% against pierce. Wierd. Real armour stops spikey things better then it prevents damage from blunt things. 20% against blade and pierce would make more sense. But that is a whole new argument that I don't wish to enter, yet)
3- Elvish Champion: Elves are slightly frail due to their slimmer physical frames. But he has better ranged damage and defence in forests.
4- Draug: Undead suffer from living in rotting corpses. However they get some good physical resistances, which evens it out nicely.

Currently all four units have exactly the same melee damage. Four different factions with their basic fighter lines all having 12-4? In one word: boring.
My suggested melee damage ranking:
1- Orcish Warlord/Draug: Once again, Orcs are physically superior. For Draugs I think lower HP and high attack potential fits their character and makes sense gameplay-wise.
2- Royal Guard/Champion: For these two, I think the current damage values make sense, I certainly like the Royal Guard. One possible alternative that occurs in the dark depths of my mind is to give the Champion 5 strikes and less damage, perhaps 9 or 10, that would suggest less strength but greater agility, just a suggestion.

Ranged Damage:
I have no complaints or suggestions with the ranged attacks of these four units. As it is now, they balance out rather nicely.

However, I don't wish to whinge and complain without attempting some form of solution. thus here are some suggested values for HP and damage (these being the ones I would like to see changed, I have no complaints about things like movement and defense ratings). I feel that these go better with the race profiles but don't make any drastically radical changes.

Code: Select all

Orcish Warlord     Royal Guard    Elvish Champion    Draug
HP: 79             Hp: 72         Hp: 68             HP: 65
Melee:13-4         Melee:12-4     Melee:12-4 OR 9-5  Melee:16-3 (this would require changes to the Revenant)
Ranged:5-3                        Ranged:9-3

As a parting shot, I would like to say that in several cases the balance of Wesnoth units is a tad messy. While the developers have pulled off a miracle by making each unit individually balanced (a feat which should not be underestimated) it appears that when compared with one another, the logic behind the stats simply doesn't hold water. I can understand why there is some debate over the logic behind things like damage types and resistances, and why db0 has given up convincing others and decided to make his own era.

Anyway, that's my problem, my proposed solution and the ideas behind it all. Rip into it!

[turin]

I disagree with you about having the Draug be the one with 3 strikes. IMHO, it should be the Orcish Warlord. Shouldn't the unit whose level 1 has 2 strikes, rather than the one whose level 1 has 3 strikes, be the one whose level 3 has 3 strikes?

Other than that, well said. I think that having the Champions do 9-5 would be a good touch.

As for issues related to this rebalancing... well, they're level 3 units. They appear really rarely in MP. And SP balancing isn't precise enough to have these changes make any difference at all. So I don't think they'll cause many problems.

[Dragonking]

FYI: most likely we are soon going to rebalance most of lvl3 fighter units, and probably some lvl2 as well, to keep units lvl1 character while advancing.

Reducing number of warlord's attack was one of ideas that we were discussing and we think it is good idea.

[Zhukov]

I disagree with you about having the Draug be the one with 3 strikes. IMHO, it should be the Orcish Warlord. Shouldn't the unit whose level 1 has 2 strikes, rather than the one whose level 1 has 3 strikes, be the one whose level 3 has 3 strikes?

More damage, less strikes for the Warlord? That sounds good to me (in my own Orc faction, my equivalent to the Warlord has 15-3, so it is natural that I concur .)
What would you say to the Draug having 13-4?

Other than that, well said. I think that having the Champions do 9-5 would be a good touch.

Glad you like it.

As for issues related to this rebalancing... well, they're level 3 units. They appear really rarely in MP. And SP balancing isn't precise enough to have these changes make any difference at all. So I don't think they'll cause many problems.

That's a bloody good point. I must admit I hadn't thought of it that way and I half agree with you. However I still think that tweaking units relative to one another would be a good way (if not the best way) to achieve balance.

Also, (this is a bit tricky to explain) it makes the inhabitants of the game world more consistant with their counterparts in the story/fantasy world.
To demonstrate my point: In the story world (the world existing in the mind of the player and creator), elves are somewhat frail fellows and trolls are undeniably tough types. I doubt anyone is going to deny this.
Thus I think it should follow that in the game world (the world that is a construct of code and statistics) we should not have a situation where an Elvish Champion has health equal to that of a Troll Warrior. This is the current situation that I disagree with.

So, while on this point, what do people think of my suggestions for HP changes?

EDIT:

FYI: most likely we are soon going to rebalance most of lvl3 fighter units, and probably some lvl2 as well, to keep units lvl1 character while advancing.

Sounds promising.

[JW]

FYI: most likely we are soon going to rebalance most of lvl3 fighter units, and probably some lvl2 as well, to keep units lvl1 character while advancing.

Interesting. I always had some issues with how some units advanced. I've never posted anything about it though really because they haven't been a focus of mine. I'll put up a few of my ideas shortly once I go through some of the units again.

[Elvish_Pillager]

An Orcish Warlord with three swings should have at least 17 damage on each swing, to keep him above the 48 damage of typical level 3 melee fighters.

I suggest:
Orcish Warlord: 76 HP, 17-3 melee, 7-2 ranged
Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee
Elvish Champion: 64 HP, 12-4 melee, 8-4 ranged
Draug: 62 HP (+ res.), 13-4 melee

Reasons:
The Elf champion needs nerfing - 70 HP, 5 moves, and 12-4 is a bit less than standard melee warrior but when you stick on the awesome 9-4 ranged it gets ridiculous.

The Orc Warlord would be nice with fewer swings (they're Orcs after all, they don't have to be normal) and the less HP is just to be more reasonable, since 80 HP was definitely a little high up there.

The Royal Guard, with his resistances, could use a little less HP, I think. Bear in mind that his attack is very different from the Champion's because he's lawful.

And finally, the Draug should be something you're mortally scared of...

[SmokemJags]

And finally, the Draug should be something you're mortally scared of...

Unless you're some kind of mage. He won't even retaliate as you fry him. Heh.

[turin]

According to the changelog, the Elvish Champion got his ranged nerfed to 9-3. I like that better than 8-4 - he shouldn't get as many reps as an archer.


Other than that, sounds good.

[Zhukov]

I suggest:
Orcish Warlord: 76 HP, 17-3 melee, 7-2 ranged
Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee
Elvish Champion: 64 HP, 12-4 melee, 8-4 ranged
Draug: 62 HP (+ res.), 13-4 melee

I agree with everything EP says here except for two points:
1) The Champion currently has 9-3 on the ranged. I think this is a recent change which may be why you missed it. 9-3 is really quite reasonable, I back Turin in that he should not get as many shots ("reps" did you call them?) as an Elvish Archer.

2) Also regarding the champion, I still like the idea of 9-5 on the melee. Like I said before, it gives the impression of more skill and dextrity then great strength. This could also serve to 'reinforce' the Royal Guard as the middle ground, halfway between the indiscriminate brutality of the Warlord and the skillful mastery of the Champion (it feels wierd using that kind of language to describe things that are just jumbles of code and stats ).

But apart from those two (rather minor) quibbles I think EP's stat proposals really hit the nail on the head.*





*To those of you not familiar with English slang, that means "exactly right".

[Shadowdweller]

Orcish Warlord: 76 HP, 17-3 melee, 7-2 ranged
Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee
Elvish Champion: 64 HP, 12-4 melee, 8-4 ranged
Draug: 62 HP (+ res.), 13-4 melee

Seems fair enough to me for the most part. The problem is: Why would you ever take the Deathblade? One potential solution that *I* could see is to keep a low damage for the Draug, but up the HP/resistances (which I gather is the current reasoning). Rather than a heavy damage dealer, it thus becomes an excellent "tank" unit. Just an idea...no particularly strong feeling about the Draug.

[Cuyo Quiz]

You can choose to have a high rep Deathblade at lvl2 for some extra punch, or take your Revenant and see if he gets to Draug by what would be more of an attrition battle.

Take into account that to get to a Draug you must go through the Revenant first, and that the Deathblade is pretty sweet if you are looking for a reliable finisher.

At least, that is how i use them. Deathblade to finish units and open holes, adn the Revenant as your common warrior with strong attacks.

Maybe the Death blade deserves a +1 dmg with all the upgrades for the other two?.

[Casual User]

Sorry to disagree, but...

Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee

So, in other words, there would be absolutely no reason to choose swordsman over pikeman anymore.

Draug: 62 HP (+ res.), 13-4 melee

Overpowered. Skeleton-type units are already very hard to deal with due to their high resistances, if he also deals 13-4, he would only be balanced if it takes ~100xp to get there...

On the other hand, I like 17-3 for the warlord and 9-5 for the champion. May I suggest 8-5 for the marshall?

[Neoriceisgood]

Overpowered. Skeleton-type units are already very hard to deal with due to their high resistances, if he also deals 13-4, he would only be balanced if it takes ~100xp to get there...

Because it''s quite obvious that skeletons do reach level 3 -alot- in normal games, and they obviously don't fall within two turns to units with the right damage types.

[Oreb]

My Suggestion:

Orcish Warlord: Like EPs

Royal Guard: 12-4, 68-74 health (+res)

Elvish Champion: 10-5 blade, 8-4 range, 64-67 health (+res in forest)

Draug: like EP's

Comments:

Elvish Champion: Elves are quicker and more dextrous than most others, elves may not pack as much and strength but they are more swift, so i think that is a good combination, or since I am elf biased 12-5 blade, 10-4 arrow Remember when it used to be 9-4 and you'd get a dextrous/strong champion and have 13-4 and 10-4

Draug: Just think a huge rotting corpse like thing comes up with a huge battle axe and hits you, the decay on the battle axe should be poisonous but anyway its great as is

[Elvish_Pillager]

Royal Guard: 70 HP (+ res.), 12-4 melee

So, in other words, there would be absolutely no reason to choose swordsman over pikeman anymore.

Blade damage type, blade and impact resistance, and more speed at level 3.