Draugr

[Soliton]

By changing him according to this proposal... You mean it goes like:
Skeleton -> Revenant -> Draug or Death Knight

Oh no, sorry, I was probably more thinking about the talk on IRC we had. I meant only the melee reduction.

However maybe we could differentiate the 2 mages through their alignment?

Making two virtually equal units from the mage that only differ in their alignment. So the "elvish" Mages would be neutral because they live with the Elves or whatever.

[SmokemJags]

About the DK:
Awww... that would have been neat too. Not a big deal though.

About the Mages:
So make the mages recruitable by rebel faction are neutral and the mages recruitable by the loyalists are lawful... I dunno. I kinda want to know why is there a whole alignment inconsistancy to begin with?

I can't think of any other unit that changes its alignment as it levels up.
Maybe instead of changing the basic mage into lawful and neutral... why not have the red, arch, and great mage become lawful as well? The only thing I can think of is they'd do too much damage during the day time, which is why they are neutral while all other mages are lawful.

Just seems rather odd, the whole inconsistancy of it.

[JW]

Cmon, would you want to face a Dark Adept at night who is in front of a level 3 leader?

Considering it has no melee attack, sure why not.

Obviously I meant while he's attacking you. Try 17.5 x2 magic cold damage coming at you. You'd better not be Drakes...

Basically, the Undead are strong enough without leadership. Undead rallying behind a leader is something they already must do out of a necessity of their animation. Their leadership bonus is that they get to walk and swing axes and stuff.

Also some user made factions do have units with berserk and I don't think there is necessarily anything wrong with that.

I was talking about Default factions, of which Undead is one. Not sure if I was clear about that. User-made factions can pretty much do whatever they want.

About the mages, I think it's ok for them to have a high XP requirement, they are arguably one of the best attackers in the game. Still we might tone that down a bit or increase requirement for units like the Dark Adept as well. In general XP requirement is something that is least consistent across units so far I'd say.

I wouldn't change it around too much. If anything I would decrease the mages xp slightly rather than raise the DAs. The DA is inferior when compared to the mage, as are it's upgrades, and it need the lower xp requirement to advance.

[Soliton]

The DA is inferior when compared to the mage, as are it's upgrades, and it need the lower xp requirement to advance.

Care to elaborate? (mostly DA vs Mage)
You noticed we toned down the Dark Sorcerers HP big time, right?

[JW]

Care to elaborate? (mostly DA vs Mage)
You noticed we toned down the Dark Sorcerers HP big time, right?

Here's their stats:

Dark Adept ... Mage
lvl 1 . . . . . ... lvl 1
16 cost . . . ... 20 cost
28 hp . . . . ... 24 hp
48 xp . . . . ... 60 xp
5 move . . . ... 5 move
. . . . . . . . . ... 5-1 Impact
10-2 Cold . ... 7-3 Fire

Dark Sorc. ... Red Mage
lvl 2 . . . . . ... lvl 2
32 cost . . . ... 40 cost
48 hp . . . . ... 42 hp
80 xp . . . . ... 100 xp
5 move . . . ... 5 move
4-3 Impact ... 6-2 Impact
12-2 Cold . ... 8-4 Fire

Necro . . . . ... Arch Mage
lvl 3 . . . . . ... lvl 3
50 cost . . . ... 59 cost
75 hp . . . . ... 57 hp
AMLA . . . . ... 220 xp
5 move . . . ... 5 move
6-3 Impact ... 7-2 Impact
15-2 Cold . ... 12-4 Fire

I guess it was different than what I thought, but I still feel the same. The Mage line has far more flexibility than the DA line, as well as having a 4th level option. Simply comparing the damage potentials of the human damage variations we have
20(24) v 21(27)
24(30) v 32
30(38) v 48
With the paranthesized numbers being in favorable time conditions. As you can see the Mage will always do more damage without considering resistancies, to which most units have 0% Cold or Fire. The DA is at a disadvantage in that his allies are weak to the Mage's Fire though.

The advantages the DA has are that he has 4, 6, and 18 more hp than his counterpart at respectively levels 1, 2, and 3, and that it takes him significantly less xp to level. Another minor difference of note is that he is frontloaded with his damage (which is Magical, so it is better to frontload).

The DA only splits at level 3 into the above and the (I find superior) Lich (who has a Cold, Drain melee as well as more damage in ranged, +1 move, but less hp and different resistancies). The Mage splits at level 2 into a damage unit or a healing unit (who also happens to decimate the DAs allies in battle). Also, the damage nit variation splits into 2 with the Silver Mage having increased resistancy to the DAs magic, as well as having Teleport, which is just cool and handy. If that weren't enough, the Mage can level into a Great Mage who does the game's best (for standard units) 64 magical Fire damage!! All he needs to do is get more xp while having slightly less hp.

So, that's my logic.

[SmokemJags]

Obviously I meant while he's attacking you. Try 17.5 x2 magic cold damage coming at you. You'd better not be Drakes...

I know you meant when he is attacking. The point I was getting across is that he is extremely vulnerable on the defensive, with no melee attack at all.
As for drakes... well they're overpowered enough as it is.
I know I've have fun with nercromancers vs drakes. They are almost useless against a lich. If they melee, he drains with cold damage. If they go ranged... he nukes them with cold damage.

I concur with the slight experience requirement for mages.
I still don't get the whole rationale for changing alignment, though the great mage's damage does go a ways towards explaining it.

[Doc Paterson]

As for drakes... well they're overpowered enough as it is.

Ridiculous.

Back to the dojo with you.

[im the one you think of]

The advantages the DA has are that he has 4, 6, and 18 more hp than his counterpart at respectively levels 1, 2, and 3, and that it takes him significantly less xp to level.

A significant advantage as it happens

Another minor difference of note is that he is frontloaded with his damage (which is Magical, so it is better to frontload).

Not so major but still pretty good

The DA only splits at level 3 into the above and the (I find superior) Lich (who has a Cold, Drain melee as well as more damage in ranged, +1 move, but less hp and different resistancies).

Which is just a difference in playing style, and only significantly important depending on your enemies.

If that weren't enough, the Mage can level into a Great Mage who does the game's best (for standard units) 64 magical Fire damage!!

That depends on whether you define the dread/ancient lich as standard.

All he needs to do is get more xp while having slightly less hp.

Another major difference as it happens, 220 xp is quite a lot, and when youve got to get that much, having 18 extra hp (i think thats what you said)is a huge advantage

[JW]

Since you want to comment/counter-comment, I'll play along.

The advantages the DA has are that he has 4, 6, and 18 more hp than his counterpart at respectively levels 1, 2, and 3, and that it takes him significantly less xp to level.

A significant advantage as it happens

Not when you consider the fact that the DA has no melee to protect himself with, and that he does less damage than his counterpart meaning
1) He is an easier target to be attacked
2) He cannot kill as quickly leaving more opportunities to counter-attack.
3*) He is also more luck prone and this can also easily lead to more counter-attacks.

Another minor difference of note is that he is frontloaded with his damage (which is Magical, so it is better to frontload).

Not so major but still pretty good

I'm glad you agree. Like I mention above, however, it does make him more luck-prone than the Mage. Also note the use of the word "minor" in my original sentence.

The DA only splits at level 3 into the above and the (I find superior) Lich (who has a Cold, Drain melee as well as more damage in ranged, +1 move, but less hp and different resistancies).

Which is just a difference in playing style, and only significantly important depending on your enemies.

Yes, it's my opinion, that's why I put it in parenthesis. If it were the main point of the sentence, not the fact that the DA line only splits at lvl 3, then I would have simply stated it.

If that weren't enough, the Mage can level into a Great Mage who does the game's best (for standard units) 64 magical Fire damage!!

That depends on whether you define the dread/ancient lich as standard.

Are all MP units in the Default factions a reasonable standard?

All he needs to do is get more xp while having slightly less hp.

Another major difference as it happens, 220 xp is quite a lot, and when youve got to get that much, having 18 extra hp (i think thats what you said)is a huge advantage

Perhaps you failed to notice the fact that I mention the Mage damage line already does more damage than the DA line even when the DA line has favorable time conditions. The fact that the Mage line gets the best damage on its (bonus) 4th level unit is just icing on the cake. I have to say that I don't think the added hp is a "huge" advantage when you consider that Mages are used to finish units off mostly, therefore they generally receive fewer attacks. The added hp is nice, no doubt, but damage is what mage units are built for.

[SmokemJags]

Back to the dojo with you.

Can I go to this dojo?
http://halflife2.filefront.com/screensh ... e/52103/15

As for the mage vs dark adept discussion... where are we trying to go with that exactly? I seem to have gotten lost in all the theorycraft.... though I guess in this case it would be theorynoth.

[Elvish_Pillager]

The Dark Sorcerer was strong because of its high HP, but now that you've taken away its high HP, doesn't it deserve a decent ranged attack upgrade? It gains 4 damage when levelling!

Granted, you might have to raise the XP requirement... IMO, that's a good idea anyway.

[Soliton]

2) He cannot kill as quickly leaving more opportunities to counter-attack.

Another minor difference of note is that he is frontloaded with his damage (which is Magical, so it is better to frontload).

Does not compute.

Perhaps you failed to notice the fact that I mention the Mage damage line already does more damage than the DA line even when the DA line has favorable time conditions.

On the other hand you ignored the fact that the Adept does more damage under unfavourable ToD. Enabling him to kill mages rather easily even at day.
Anyway most of your arguments were geared towards campaign play so I'm not sure where you're getting with them.

[JW]

2) He cannot kill as quickly leaving more opportunities to counter-attack.

Another minor difference of note is that he is frontloaded with his damage (which is Magical, so it is better to frontload).

Does not compute.

Yeah, I know it's contradictory, but I had contradictory feelings with the low reps when I missed 10/12 Magical attacks playing Survival last night. With a Mage that would take 4 attacks, with a DA it took 6. Anyway, I do think that the frontloading is better on magic because its high hit frequency makes it easier to keep opponents from retaliating. I was just pissed from the epic bad luck I had; I see that game as a team game and it made me let my teammates down with my destruction. I wasn't happy. [/frustration]

Perhaps you failed to notice the fact that I mention the Mage damage line already does more damage than the DA line even when the DA line has favorable time conditions.

On the other hand you ignored the fact that the Adept does more damage under unfavourable ToD. Enabling him to kill mages rather easily even at day.
Anyway most of your arguments were geared towards campaign play so I'm not sure where you're getting with them.

You're right. You asked me to explain my logic though. I didn't make the links between 1) my reasons for making that statement being SP based and 2) the fact that all balancing desicions are MP based.

BTW, I second this motion:

The Dark Sorcerer was strong because of its high HP, but now that you've taken away its high HP, doesn't it deserve a decent ranged attack upgrade? It gains 4 damage when levelling!

Granted, you might have to raise the XP requirement... IMO, that's a good idea anyway.

[Tippsey]

Got to say I'm going to try and quote one of Noy's famous excuses. Of that we can't compare individual units in different factions as they serve different purposes.

Upping the DA line may since they are similiar units look nice but they don't serve the same purpose. Mages are a side unit sometimes you need them, like vs undead. Sometimes they can go sit in the shed, like against drakes. The DA though is the bread and butter unit of the undead. Without it the undead would be picked off by more burning fire and crushign anvils then one can count. Sure currently it's just upping the exp but that's what helped make the DA useable. It could level without a ton of exp. Without this feature it will probably never level during a close call with mellee opponents, which is ussually what saves it. Heck sure Mages and DA have near same damage but only mages can decide they are goign holy and learning how to heal then illuminate their buddies. Something which is quite a bit more powerful in different ways. At the moment DA I belive are good in their ways the hp decrease put them more in line and I think that's all that's needed. To much more screwing around with them and we might have more undead suck wars. Before we go off the deep end let's see how much this hp decrease works before taking more extreme measures.

[Shadowdweller]

Just to pipe in with other tangents:

* decreased HP of the Orcish Warlord from 80 to 72
* decreased melee damage of the Orcish Warlord from 13-4 to 12-4
* decreased cost of the Orcish Warlord from 56 to 48

I can't say what OTHER changes are being made, but I'd have to say I disagree with this one QUITE strongly. Orcs are, thematically speaking SUPPOSED to be a tough melee race, yes?

The warlord has a very strong attack no doubt, but this is mitigated (in comparison to units such as the Dwarven Lord and Royal Guard) by the lack of resistances and the poor quality of the ranged attack. Compare in particular to the Elvish Champion who would now have not only the same 12-4 attack, but also a POWERFUL ranged attack (9-4), and better defense to boot. In a race less thematically and strategically reliant upon melee.

Consider that the Northerner faction is already not the amongst the most versatile in comparison with other factions. Consider also that the Orcish grunt line is one of it's bread-and-butter units as well. (The DEFINING unit, in my personal opinion). The Warlord SHOULD be strong.

decreased ranged damage of the Duelist from 15-1 to 12-1

This also I think is a pretty bad change. A 15-1 ranged attack is already pretty mediocre for a level 2 unit. And the Duelist is still not in any danger of being overpowered/overpowering the faction.