The South Guard: Story pics and Portraits

[Valkier]

Greetings, Scavenger! I am a bit late to this party, however we'll call it fashionable and hope for the best.

Originally, this post was to try to convince you to stay. I went on and on about how critiques should not matter outside of what is valid and how people have favorites. I re-read what took place in this thread however, and have decided that this was not the best message to send. It seemed silly to me to do so to be honest. You say you're a comic artist and have worked on numerous projects in the past. You must have, at one point or another, had criticism aimed at your work. Especially if you're getting payed as it seems you're implying.

I was also going to just ignore what you have done in my message. Critiquing someone who is leaving seems like a perfectly horrible waste of time. However, I find myself looking at what you did, and what people said, and I think a few things need to be brought up here. The first of which is your landscapes. I think they are your strongest area to be honest. Those are very well done. If anything, I think you'd be instrumental in doing some of the large scenery shots that Wesnoth is sorely lacking. If not because you do have a knack for them, but because there is no set style to accomplish them. You'd basically have free reign on what happens in that arena, and I think it would suit you given what I've seen.

As for your characters, it's a shame you feel "insulted" over what amounts to the truth. Some discrepancies are there, and stylistically there is more at work going on than something "sexist". First off, I will add I don't agree that your characters are sexist. Cliche in physique, yes, but I see nothing offensive about any of them. The female has breasts that would crush most rocks between them, and with a waist that would probably snap in half under the sheer weight. It also seems as though you tried to add abs to her figure. First off, she'd never survive any training given her bust size. Second, if she were so muscular as to have abs popping out from under her robe, her breasts would have to be reduced. Anatomically speaking, believing a woman would have that musculature, she must have started out with breasts roughly the size of a station wagon. Now you can choose to be offended by that, or you can just take 3 minutes in photoshop and reduce them. The problem is not a hard one to fix, and it's not the first time it has ever happened. We're just pointing out that it's there because we would like the portrait to work.

For the boy knight? Keep the freckles, but add more lines to the face to appear older. I have ginger friends (we flock together) who are 23 and have freckles, but they still look 23. It is well within your ability and, again, 5 minutes of photoshop to fix that problem. I would also point out that the elbow closest to us needs to be moved in more. While indeed, the arm does hang straight down when the average person is crossing their arms, your angle doesn't allow for it. The body is rotating away from us, and therefore the arm would be put at an angle since it would be resting on his abdomen.

The butch guy with the glaive? I don't care about how his armor looks, but others have expressed discontent. I would say his body looks flat. Also, his armor looks extremely clean and polished, which is fine, but I'd expect some reflections. Currently, it simply does not look like metal.

Leave if you must, but I think you're taking this way too personally. What you have is perfectly easy to fix and some campaigns would greatly benefit from your efforts. If you do end up leaving, it's quite a shame given that it's over something rather easily justified and reconciled. Just know that some of the people here such as Kitty, Jetrel, TSI, and Myself, have also been drawing for awhile. Some of us attend college as well. We do, in fact, know something of what we're talking about. Staying would only serve to help you get better, as nobody here or anywhere is perfect.

We only want to help, but if saying goodbye is how we help you, then we wish you all the best.

[Frogger5]

I do very much agree...

Now pardon me here scavenger, but I think it's rather... (searches for a better word but fails) overreacting, to take Kitty's post as insulting, seeing as your new here, and are unfamiliar with art expectations such as the ones mentioned in that post, we can't blame you for the faults in the portrait, and we certainly don't. But stuff like that simply can't go in Wesnoth, it would be very out of place.

Look on the bright side, two stunning new portraits! (even though deoran looks a little young) Only problem now, is that when we create the rest, they wont match the style.

Nice landscapes BTW

[DUHH]

Hello, welcome, and goodbye!

Just dropped by to I really dig your story-pictures. Great way of doing the variations.

As for the character art, I don't agree that your style is too different from the rest. Sure, the portraits that are up to the new standard all have superficial similarities like linework mixed with painterly colours. And they all try to be reasonably realistic. But within those confines, there's huge variation between the different artists, and I personally believe your work could meld in quite well within that variation, even without linework.

As for sexist... Of course it is sexist. No need to be upset about it. No one called you sexist, they just pointed out some stereotypical proportions as sexist. And it's true. But there's no shame in it. Heroic depictions always rely on overblown gender stereotypes, and is sexist whether it is for men or women, but that's not the problem. The only problem is that your female character stands out even more than your other characters. It looks considerably more cartoony.

Anyhow... Hope you're not chased of the site. I for one would like to see more of your work.

[Quetzalcoatl]

Thank you scavenger, kitty, LordBob and all other art developers/contributors for yours great work, I really enjoy new art for The South Guard.

I think there is something bad with the way the art is developed right now. Please forgive me my bad english, I hope you will understand me anyway. I should also mention that this is more general comment on the way the art is developed and it's not strictly related to this topic. I really, really love all the new art but as I'm not an artist I tried to avoid making pointless posts in this forum before.

Always as the new artist comes here his work is criticized, some people think that character on the portrait for example has too small ears, should have green hair or his nose is too big. Ah forgot about that, of course his style almost never match Wesnoth style... It's somehow amazing that amount of found flaws is never related to the general quality of the new contribution. Ladies and Gentelmen... Do you know that was also the case when kitty started to contribute portraits?

I really don't understand why none of the artists wasn't frustrated about that fact before. I'm sure its so boring to made this little edits over and over again. Actually I know it from experience as my work requires me to do those never ending so called improvements from time to time... I bet even if Frank Frazetta, Adrian Smith, Wayne Reynolds or Simon Bisley would like to contribute they would have serious problems with doing so. Don't you see that current art developers/contributors are people that have enough skill to make good money on their art? I bet they also have friends, families and all that so called life. Still they want to contribute to this project doing this for FREE. Now anybody can criticize new art by simply typing: 'his head is like a square' or 'he should have more eyes'. I think that's just wrong.

I really believe average user shouldn't be able to teach kitty, LordBob, DUHH or scavenger how to draw. Am I wrong here? If yes did you ever saw so called professional art? If not go to wizards.com website and browse DnD gallery... At least developing most other aspects of Wesnoth like source code, multiplayer or singleplayer content isn't developed to respond to average/single user demands, and that is GOOD as you let people that know what to do to work comfortable.

Well to sum things up. Bashing new contributions will not help to Wesnoth a lot instead it will keep this game in half of pre 1.0 half nice new art theme for a few long years if not forever. Its really choice of community if we want to have old style of art or even no art at all or new amazing contributions like those published here.

As I said before its not very related to this topic but the way artists are treated in this community in general, but somebody had to do it after all at some point...

Regards
Q

[Ardent]

Q. I disagree at least a bit - sometimes the biomechanics just does not work with the characters - they can't have that much different skeletons and they are not M.C. Eschers portraits. For example if you code an ability that doesn't work, somebody will tell you, that you have a bug which appears there and there. You don't have to fix it and you shouldn't expect somebody to use it. If I draw somebody who couldn't work as a human being...well I guess you get the point. So from my point of view: "that isn't a glaive" is a discussable point whilst "his arm cannot band like that" is, if it really is that way something that should be fixed if possible.

For my part I dance ballroom dances for some time now, and always beg my trainer to criticize me as much as he likes as long as it is constructive criticism ("you are doing it the wrong way, but if you improve this and that, it's much better") and not just nitpicking...because that's the way to get better and have a somewhat realistic view of ones capabilities.

[Max]

would be nice if the stickies in this forum (which scavenger obviously read) included some notes about style...

[thespaceinvader]

Valid point. I'll update the tech specs to include stye at some point.

[kitty]

Most things have already been said, but since what I said sparked this discussion/problem, I'll try to explain a bit. But first of all: I didn't want to insult you or your work. This wasn't my intention and I'm sorry if you feel that way.

I didn't say that you or your work were sexist. I said that I don't want sexist work in Wesnoth. I should have elaborated more... My point basically was and is that a bit cartoonish is fine and exaggerating features can be great. Using gender stereotypes within certain limits is necessary but doing so in an overly emphasized way is different because it concerns issues of valuation and respect. For me as a woman that is a central theme concerning fantasy art, where chainmail bikini clad heroines are a dime a dozen.
Your depiction of Ethiliel isn't degrading but it is a lot closer to such depctions of women than what we currently aim for. Her giant boobs and tiny waist don't add to her as a character but to her as an object - and that's where I object.

It is a shame to loose you over such a small disagreement (if you were willing to take some steps in our direction, I'd be sure willing to oblige as well...) but if you aren't willing to cope with any kind of criticism cooperation would probably be difficult. I would like to see more work form you and try to communicate better in future, if you feel like giving this another try.

[Jetrel]

As for sexist... Of course it is sexist. No need to be upset about it. No one called you sexist, they just pointed out some stereotypical proportions as sexist. And it's true. But there's no shame in it. Heroic depictions always rely on overblown gender stereotypes, and is sexist whether it is for men or women, but that's not the problem. The only problem is that your female character stands out even more than your other characters. It looks considerably more cartoony.

This is essentially all that people were complaining about; the contrast.

I agree with DUHH in saying that yes, we're not calling your character into question because you drew a certain way. Yes, the usual "action comic" style depictions are inherently a bit sexist, but that's the point. Sexy, exaggerated drawings (of either gender) are good sometimes.

We're not condemning the style, just stating that certain exaggerations don't fit in wesnoth. And yes, you're absolutely correct in noting that certain bits of art "currently in the game" don't match that canonical style either, which we're trying to fix, hopefully with your help.

It is a shame to loose you over such a small disagreement (if you were willing to take some steps in our direction, I'd be sure willing to oblige as well...) but if you aren't willing to cope with any kind of criticism cooperation would probably be difficult. I would like to see more work form you and try to communicate better in future, if you feel like giving this another try.

I wholeheartedly agree. Please do give this another chance.

[scavenger]

I didn't say that you or your work were sexist. I said that I don't want sexist work in Wesnoth. I should have elaborated more... My point basically was and is that a bit cartoonish is fine and exaggerating features can be great. Using gender stereotypes within certain limits is necessary but doing so in an overly emphasized way is different because it concerns issues of valuation and respect. For me as a woman that is a central theme concerning fantasy art, where chainmail bikini clad heroines are a dime a dozen.
Your depiction of Ethiliel isn't degrading but it is a lot closer to such depctions of women than what we currently aim for. Her giant boobs and tiny waist don't add to her as a character but to her as an object - and that's where I object.

Fair enough. You and I have both very different mindsets. And that's OK, I suppose, I'm not the person to judge anyone else's (artistic) opinions or force those of mine upon them. And making compromises to our artistic style wouldn't do either of us any good in this case. Nobody should have to force themselves in a hobby venture in a way they not comfortable with. So I simply move on.

Quetzalcoatl actually made a very good comment on this matter. You see, it's not like I was desperately trying to get involved in this. Wesnoth really isn't the only thing in my life. From my perspective my contributions were just a really small side venture. I do have a job, family, friends, and I have other art projects going on that I make money off. Upon reflection, my time is best spent elsewhere. As simple as that. I'm not bitter about that, it's just a rational conclusion. I'll be fine.

And that's really all I can say about it, I guess.

[Telaron]

For me as a woman that is a central theme concerning fantasy art, where chainmail bikini clad heroines are a dime a dozen.

You've said it. I hate it when they have that in games because that means I can't play a game that is otherwise great. It's getting a lot worse too. Just look at Evony and what they have to resort to. It's very annoying having... I'll just say immoral women... popping up every which way on the web page.

Please do give this another chance.

I'll be fine.

Good, welcome back.

BTW, Great work on all your portraits and landscapes. (I guess that's what you would call them right?) I look forward to seeing any of your further work.

[artisticdude]

Please do give this another chance.

Upon reflection, my time is best spent elsewhere. As simple as that. I'm not bitter about that, it's just a rational conclusion. I'll be fine.

I don't think he intends on coming back.

[lmelior]

How about Valkier's suggestion: there was universally high praise for your beautiful landscapes, perhaps you'd be willing to contribute more of those instead?

Or you could do as you originally planned: just do the characters in your style, post them and don't even bother reading the critique (in case you didn't guess, it is practically never-ending). Even if they don't make it in mainline as-is, I think I can speak for many of us when I say I'd love to see your vision for the characters anyway. I'm certain they would be used in one form or another.

[zookeeper]

I'm going to be putting the story images in the game shortly; how would you like to appear in the campaign's credits? Just as "scavenger" or as "Real Name (scavenger)"?

As for the portraits, I'll pretty surely be adding at least M'brin, since that doesn't introduce any stylistic mismatch in the campaign. I'm not yet sure what to do about the others. Even if I used the Ethiliel portrait, Hylas and Afalas would still be left with the old-style portraits, leading to there being three different portrait styles in use in the campaign at the same time (yours, lutesian and core portraits)...

[thespaceinvader]

Zookeeper, check your PMs, i'll forward you what scavenger said about crediting when i asked.