Terrain tiling [Dirt for a change]

[thespaceinvader]

I'd go for making the cacti a touch bigger, so that they match roughly in scale with the skull, which would look odd at any smaller scale. Make them roughly equivalent in scale with the tents and huts that are seen in desert villages.

[beetlenaut]

I think it's great the way it is. The cactus next to it looks too small, but I think the one in the next tile over looks OK. If this image goes in the scenery folder though, you wouldn't need to worry about the plant at all. It could be put next to one or not as the map designer preferred. It could even be used to hold a fun object that way. That's what I would like to see. (This is also a good solution because more than one or two on the map would look funny.)

[Cernunnos]

Thanks for those constructive comments.



Remarks :
-a tree from any other tile is approximately the size of a human sprite.
-a cactus is smaller than a tree, and let's say in how i saw them, about the same size than a real human being.

Then, i think the cactus should be about the size i draw them.
But anyway, i think you're right, they should be a little bigger...

Hell, i don't like cactus!
(is "cacti" the plural?)

[thespaceinvader]

I think comparing them with the trees and the palms from the oases is not quite accurate, since both of those have evidence of scale (how close the trees are together, the size of the lake). A cactus on its own, absent any other features and particularly in the presence of the skull, will be lent scale by what is on the tile with it. And therefore, look very small.

Or that's how I see it, anyway.

[Turuk]

Hell, i don't like cactus!
(is "cacti" the plural?)

Yes it is.


As for trying to find the right size to make your cacti and skulls, I have to agree with thespaceinvader. Many of the terrain tiles are done to show scale based on what is in the tile, and not directly in comparison with the scale used in other terrain tiles. Not to mention the whole issue of HAPMA, which would make any attempt at scaling drive you insane.

I would just go with what you feel looks right in view of the larger map, and something that blends in well with the desert terrain as it is. You have to remember that direct comparisons of your cacti against the trees of an oasis, or even a forest, will be rare. Even if they do end up next to an oasis, cacti come in incredibly varied sizes and can be quite large, so if it is seen as similar to the height of a tree, that is really not that odd. Saguaro cacti have an average height in the range of 30-40 feet.

[Cernunnos]

Well, thanks for grammar/orthographic correction first

Secondly, i think i'm learning an acronym a day here =)

Well seriously, i find something quite interesting:

Trying to see what was the good size for cacti, i re-sized them with the scale layer tool of the gimp, i knew the resolution would be worst, but it was to have a basic size to go with. Anyway, i found by doing this what was this blurry effect on the existing cactus tile, which i searched for quite a long time when i draw those cacti in the first place and which i didn't found. Well i think the blurry effect resulting of the scaling goes quite well :



Seriously, i find it quite ok, and you can watch the existing cactus, it is at least this blurry, which makes an effect of thorns...
Well, i can make this less blurry of course if required, just tell

(as a note the first skull needs some other work while the second one seems quite strange i may do something about it)

[Turuk]

I have to say that the blurry result does make it seem as if the surface of the cactus is not flat, and so the viewer will indeed assume you may have taken the time to draw all of those thorns.

The one in the middle looks the best IMHO, but I like the flowers of the one on the right as well. Nice touch with the bones of the rib cage.

[beetlenaut]

I have to say that the blurry result does make it seem as if the surface of the cactus is not flat...

I agree. I'd sharpen up the flowers though.

[mnewton1]

Nice but i don't like how it is so blurry

[Jetrel]

There's is one issue among others about which i don't know: the size of it.
As you know, tiles and sprites are drawn on different scales, there, i tried to respect the scale of a skull if it was drawn as any unit, it matches approximately the size of some buffalo skull with the unit scale. But cactus behind seem small compared to it...

Yeah, this is an intractible problem we've had since day one - units and terrain being at different scales. The only real solution is to actually just make everything the same scale - obviously we're not going to trash everything and do that - at least not ever in wesnoth. Might be nice for some sequel/other game that uses wesnoth's graphics, but not wesnoth itself.

The best thing to do is to adopt the visual metaphor of graphical "layers". Our minds can accept stuff of radically different sizes if they're separated into groups. It's never going to be perfect, but it's tolerable.

If the skull is looking wacky, try making it at one of the other accepted scales (like terrain). However, don't worry too much about it because the fundamental contradiction in scales is not going to be resolved, period. We simply cannot make it 'feel right with' both the unit scale and the terrain scale. So don't waste time worrying about it. Just draw something that works well enough and move on.

[Cernunnos]

So don't waste time worrying about it. Just draw something that works well enough and move on.

Answers should always be as clear!

I'll do that then.
I will do the same with the blur, see what i think works and what don't, i feel like doing more complete tiles and then only show them (contrary to what i'm doing now, show every step of the work) , to see if it works as a whole and ask everyone's point after, like i did before.

Thanks, bye.

Edit: should looks like this in the end (with more variations of course) if you have any remark about any plant or if you find that there's too much for a sole tile, your welcome, bye!

[Sangel]

You know, with that kind of density, we could have a "desert shrubs" terrain type... though what aliases would it be? Desert + Forest? Just plain Desert? Hmmmm...

I do feel that the outlines on the skull are a bit too dark at the moment; it makes it clash with the softer outlines of the cacti and shrubs surrounding it. Feel free to disregard that if you redraw it at a different scale, of course.

Thanks again for doing this, by the way. While portrait art may be where Wesnoth gets its glamour, and sprite art may be where Wesnoth gets its zest, it's the terrain art that's so crucial to Wesnoth's polish - it's the canvas that the rest goes on, so to speak.

Incidentally, you know your work is good when Jetryl enters the conversation without adding a direct critique.

[mnewton1]

Very Very nicely done, I think that you should use Dessert+Forest. I also like such a large variety of plants. I think that you are doing a great job so far and I hope that most of these become Mainline

[beetlenaut]

It is way too much per tile for just desert, but I love the idea of desert scrub (forest+desert). For the plain desert, you could do one or maybe two plants per tile. I'm glad the desert is getting more variation. That was one area that needed it. Will this be an overlay so it can go on the desert hills as well?

My only critique is that they look too clean. Whenever I've seen areas like this, they always have tons of dead plant material on the ground: sticks, dead grass, cactus pieces, etc, because everything decomposes so slowly in the desert.

[Turuk]

You know, with that kind of density, we could have a "desert shrubs" terrain type... though what aliases would it be? Desert + Forest? Just plain Desert? Hmmmm...

I could see this, but just not messing with the current terrain would probably work out for the best, just offer a tile variation. The player can have their units wade through cacti forests and try not to get poked to death.

I have to say that I would also like to see these interspersed throughout the general terrain, of one here or there on regular desert (Beetlenaut posted and beat me to this). It would allow the little detail to be spread out, so there is not solely either vast expanses of sand or large areas of cacti forest.