Legend of Wesmere dates

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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sub2pewds
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Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

I recently discovered that the LoW campaign has been incorrectly dated. The scenario "The Treaty" is chronologically linked to the SoF scenario "A Bargain is Struck", and is thus placed at 15YW. However, the _main.cfg file for the LoW is dated as taking place from 20YW – 93YW. There is clearly an inconsistency here. I believe that we should therefore change the _main.cfg file to be 15YW – 88YW instead.

Note that this means when El'Isomithir speaks of Haldric I repudiating the treaty eleven years ago here, this would then be 4YW, which is before the events of "An Orcish Incursion". We may wish to make him instead say six years so that it makes sense contextually. Thoughts?
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sub2pewds
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

I will also add that the SoF scenario "A Bargain is Struck" incorrectly states that he met the elves at Weldyn, when he actually met them at Tath. This should also be fixed.
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Pentarctagon
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by Pentarctagon »

Could you open a bug for these errors here?
99 little bugs in the code, 99 little bugs
take one down, patch it around
-2,147,483,648 little bugs in the code
gnombat
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by gnombat »

The timeline used to say that Legend of Wesmere started in 12 YW (I'm not sure why it was changed).
sub2pewds wrote: September 4th, 2019, 11:23 pm Note that this means when El'Isomithir speaks of Haldric I repudiating the treaty eleven years ago here, this would then be 4YW, which is before the events of "An Orcish Incursion". We may wish to make him instead say six years so that it makes sense contextually. Thoughts?
I think "eleven years ago" actually refers to the year the treaty was signed, not when it was broken. (Again, this seems to assume that the initial scenarios of Legend of Wesmere are taking place in 12 YW.)
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sub2pewds
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

It seems that ESR changed it on that timeline here back in 2011. Six years later, Celtic_Minstrel then added that to the _main.cfg file here. It seems ESR hasn't been active in over a year. Does anyone know how we can ask him why he changed it?
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by gnombat »

sub2pewds wrote: September 5th, 2019, 4:03 am It seems that ESR changed it on that timeline here back in 2011. Six years later, Celtic_Minstrel then added that to the _main.cfg file here. It seems ESR hasn't been active in over a year. Does anyone know how we can ask him why he changed it?
If the change was made that long ago, I doubt that he (or anyone else) would remember the exact details of why that was done - it probably has something to do with the fact that Legend of Wesmere was being revised extensively around that time. In any case, it appears that the old timeline wasn't consistent with Sceptre of Fire either: it still has Haldric II meeting the elves in 20 YW, and commissioning the Sceptre in 25 YW.

Is there any reason the first scenario of Sceptre of Fire could not be changed to say "five years" instead of "ten years"? (And change anywhere else if necessary to be consistent with that timeline.)
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sub2pewds
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

Okay. I've compiled the related facts. Now I know why there's a big warning against messing with it. In bold are the facts that can't really be changed.
  1. Treaty signed in 1YW (pretty much by definition).
  2. AOI takes place from 7YW - 8YW.
  3. AOI "Defend the Forest" takes place "some years" after treaty signing.
  4. LoW takes place from 20YW - 93YW.
  5. LoW "The Uprooting" starts roughly a decade after AOI.
  6. LoW "A Council of Hard Choices" takes place "eleven years" after 1YW (i.e. 12YW).
  7. LoW "The Treaty" takes place in 15YW.
  8. LoW "Council Ruling" and "Elvish Assassins" take place years apart according to "Northern Battle".
  9. LoW "Northern Battle" and "End of War" take place years apart.
  10. SoF takes place from 25YW - 40YW.
  11. SoF "A Bargain is Struck" takes place "ten years" after LoW "The Treaty", thus in 25YW.
  12. SoF "A Bargain is Struck" takes place after "Council Ruling" but when Landar was still alive.
  13. SoF "Epilogue" takes place 15 years after "A Bargain is Struck", which is before LoW "End of War".
1 can't be changed by definition.
8 can't be changed because Crelanu's philter is said to have worn off.
10 can't really be changed because of age implications for Haldric II.
12 can't be changed because the scenario revolves around hostile elves not bound to the treaty.
13 can't be changed because Haldric II and Alanin have aged during that time.

I propose the following:
  1. Change 4 so that LoW takes place from 19YW - 93YW.
  2. Change 6 so that "A Council of Hard Choices" takes place "eighteen years" after 1YW (i.e. 19YW).
  3. Change 7 so that "The Treaty" takes place in 20YW.
  4. Change 11 so that "A Bargain is Struck" takes place "five years" after LoW "The Treaty", thus in 25YW.
I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that this is probably the easiest patch up possible.
Last edited by Konrad2 on September 6th, 2019, 2:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: You mistook '6' and '7' for '5' and '6'
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sub2pewds
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

I have opened a bug report and a pull request for this problem.
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by octalot »

sub2pewds wrote: September 6th, 2019, 8:47 am
  • SoF "A Bargain is Struck" takes place after "Council Ruling" but when Landar was still alive.
  • SoF "Epilogue" takes place 15 years after "A Bargain is Struck", which is before LoW "End of War".
Although these elves were part of Landar's rebels, I don't see anything in those scenarios that says Landar is still alive or sets them before End of War. The rebels surviving End of War were banished to the Forest of Gitamoth (which is either north or north-east of the Heart Mountains), but that's where End of War was fought. For rebels this far south of there, they might just be an isolated band of outlaws.

Gitamoth itself is on SotBE's map of Far North. According to the LoW's epilogue it's the Silent Forest, but LoW's journey-tracker puts the battle on the south edge of Greenwood.
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by Konrad2 »

octalot wrote: September 6th, 2019, 1:56 pm
sub2pewds wrote: September 6th, 2019, 8:47 am
  • SoF "A Bargain is Struck" takes place after "Council Ruling" but when Landar was still alive.
  • SoF "Epilogue" takes place 15 years after "A Bargain is Struck", which is before LoW "End of War".
Although these elves were part of Landar's rebels, I don't see anything in those scenarios that says Landar is still alive or sets them before End of War. The rebels surviving End of War were banished to the Forest of Gitamoth (which is either north or north-east of the Heart Mountains), but that's where End of War was fought. For rebels this far south of there, they might just be an isolated band of outlaws.

Gitamoth itself is on SotBE's map of Far North. According to the LoW's epilogue it's the Silent Forest, but LoW's journey-tracker puts the battle on the south edge of Greenwood.
According to the Timeline, the elvish civil war ends in 50/51YW. SoF ends 40YW.

sub2pewds wrote: September 4th, 2019, 11:23 pm Note that this means when El'Isomithir speaks of Haldric I repudiating the treaty eleven years ago here, this would then be 4YW, which is before the events of "An Orcish Incursion". We may wish to make him instead say six years so that it makes sense contextually. Thoughts?
I just want to point out that this might indeed refer to the breaking of the treaty, not to signing. It works out if LoW starts in 20YW, since the treaty was broken in 9YW.
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sub2pewds
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Re: Legend of Wesmere dates

Post by sub2pewds »

octalot wrote: September 6th, 2019, 1:56 pm
Although these elves were part of Landar's rebels, I don't see anything in those scenarios that says Landar is still alive or sets them before End of War. The rebels surviving End of War were banished to the Forest of Gitamoth (which is either north or north-east of the Heart Mountains), but that's where End of War was fought. For rebels this far south of there, they might just be an isolated band of outlaws.

Gitamoth itself is on SotBE's map of Far North. According to the LoW's epilogue it's the Silent Forest, but LoW's journey-tracker puts the battle on the south edge of Greenwood.
Given that the fight is so far from Gitamoth, and that they are still militant, I think we can safely assume (although I admit it isn't explicitly stated) that SoF takes place before the civil war finishes. Given that the timeline has treated that in this way, we can probably stick with these assumptions.
Konrad2 wrote: September 6th, 2019, 2:15 pm I just want to point out that this might indeed refer to the breaking of the treaty, not to signing. It works out if LoW starts in 20YW, since the treaty was broken in 9YW.
Yeah, this does seem open to interpretation. Even though it wasn't my first understanding, I think gnombat was right to point out it was originally interpreted as being after the treaty was signed. I guess the reason I am now persuaded that this makes more sense to me is that in "Ka'lian under Attack", it is implied that Kalenz and Landar haven't heard that the treaty has been broken. I believe that for the most part, it seems somewhat unlikely that the Lintanir elves would not have heard about the Pact of Mutual Aid being broken after a decade.

All in all, if we incorrectly interpret an author's intentions, it's no great mistake. If it is still consistent with everything else in the story, we have creative license to modify it for consistency's sake. The question is whether there is a better solution.
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