Legend of the Invincibles

[Scrapulous]

Dugi, this campaign is amazing. I've played Wesnoth a few times before, but I always got frustrated that unit advancement mostly stopped at level 3 with only small health increases after that. LotI cures that, and I love the massive scale of this campaign. I fear that I won't be able to play other scenarios after LotI, because they will feel less detailed and less rich. I'm also glad to read that you're planning another scenario!

I haven't got very far, I just started on Chapter 4 of part 1 (where you lose your recall list), so take some of my feedback with that context. I'm playing on Wesnoth 1.10.7. I also am playing on Easy.

Knockback is very strange. Sometimes it works as expected, and other times not. I sometimes see it make a unit disappear completely. Sometimes it knocks a unit more than one hex away. And sometimes it kills the unit, but still knocks that unit's loot back . Would you like me to preserve save files for when this happens?

Efraim's special attack that enables him to attack many times sometimes acts funny. Right now my highest version is a 13-4 attack that he executes three times. In some strange cases, it becomes a 13-2 attack instead, and I can't tell why. I think I also saw it become 13-3 once. It always eventually reverts to 13-4, though.

Often when I start a new mission, I need to browse the item inventory to see what items I picked up and try to plan what units to give them to (I am not very good at this). When I right click on a unit and select items, the first option is to look at my stored items. If I have enough items, then I get a list of categories (helms, swords, xbows, etc) (btw, great idea to have these categories - sometimes I have very many items in storage). Then when I open a category (say to look at all the swords), it would be very nice if I had a menu option to go "Back" to the list of categories. Instead I have to leave the item browsing interface entirely (either by selecting an item or choosing "Exit"). So to look at all my helms, swords, xbows, etc, I have to right click and enter the Items menu once for each category. If I could navigate "Back" to the categories, I would save a lot of time and clicks and could view my storage easily.

Sorry if this was discussed before. I started reading the thread around page 200 because the first post suggested starting around there, so I may have missed identical reports that came before there.

Also, it seems that Hex is not around here any more, and I almost hesitate to agree with his ideas, but I will say that I also had some trouble with the scenario where Ephraim and Lethalia meet Argan and they escape from their prison. The constant flow of bats was distracting and difficult and in some cases where I explored side caves the number of bats built up and made it hard for me to get back on the main path. I didn't have trouble finishing the mission in 100 turns, but it was challenging to navigate the dragon with 20-30 bats at my back, killing whatever zombie bats I was able to make to distract the dragon with. Eventually I had to just give up with my own bats (who were badly outnumbered by real bats and would get killed by them as fast as I created them) and risk letting the dragon attack my heroes. Part of the reason so many bats built up is that I made Ephraim and Lethalia wait for Argan, who is indeed a very slow mover in that scenario. I guess it paid off, though, because he was the one who dealt successfully with the dragon The way I dealt with the bats was after killing the dragon I used the keep to recruit enough zombies to block the bats from getting to me, and then I continued along my way.

I guess what I wanted from that scenario was not to make Argan faster, but a way to turn off the endless bat spawn. Maybe there is one and I missed it. But in the next mission I seemed to be able to turn off the bat spawn, so I wondered if I could have done it in the previous mission. I was very glad to be done with the escape mission, though, so I didn't go back and try.

I have also seen some instances of typos or some English mistakes, but I didn't know at that time that you wanted typo reports, so I wasn't recording them (also sometimes I get too into the game and can't tear myself away to write down reports). Dugi, are you still interested in these? Now that I'm caught up on this thread, I can just post them when I find them.

But mainly my issues have been minor and insignificant compared to the enjoyment I'm getting from this campaign. I am having so much fun playing. The occasional strange behavior has never affected my enjoyment of the game, and is mostly temporary (the knockback thing is very common, but I just save-and-reload when it destroys a unit without killing it and then attack that unit with another, non-knockback unit... I also replace claymores (which I find a LOT) with other swords as soon as possible to minimize the problem). The typos have never caused me to misunderstand what's happening, they are mostly an issue of "polish."

Thanks again for this massive work of creation, Dugi. AMLAs, item storage, large, sweeping recall lists - this is what I always wanted BfW to be.

Also, you asked for name suggestions. I've made some based on people I know or characters I or my friends have played in games. Obviously feel free to use or not based on how the names sound to you:

A rude white mage who likes doing the right thing regardless of rules and laws Marian
A ruler of an order of white mages who prefers profit and power over righteous choices Einhard
A baron, not very intelligent but likes fighting for the good cause Bofur
A stranger from distant southern lands (something that wounds arabic would fit) Al-Ghareeb (I think means "The Stranger")
A female assassin, a real pro at all the skills an assassin might need (we need to have at least one female character, no?) Well, "Lethalia" is taken, so... maybe "Sicaria" (after the ancient sicarii) or "Dare" or "Xenia"
A pragmatic lord, reasonable but likes profit quite too much Jarn. Or, if we want to be topical, Silvio?
A powerful but quite simple-minded lord who never questions what he's told and is prone to manipulation Gorales

[Konrad2]

@Scrapulous
the bats shouldnt be a problem, just block the path with efraim, zombify some bats and then advance slowly while zombifiying more bats. that way you will have at the end of the scenario about 40 bats at least.

[Raijer]

Knockback is very strange. Sometimes it works as expected, and other times not. I sometimes see it make a unit disappear completely. Sometimes it knocks a unit more than one hex away. And sometimes it kills the unit, but still knocks that unit's loot back . Would you like me to preserve save files for when this happens?

From what i know, you might have encountered a bug where knockback kicks out an unit out of the map if it was close to the border. Or it might come from another ability, "disintegrates", which simply kills the unit with something like 5% chances. The "more than one hex away" is kinda random, depends on which hexes are free close by.

Efraim's special attack that enables him to attack many times sometimes acts funny. Right now my highest version is a 13-4 attack that he executes three times. In some strange cases, it becomes a 13-2 attack instead, and I can't tell why. I think I also saw it become 13-3 once. It always eventually reverts to 13-4, though.

If you watch carefully, you might see that it depends on the % of max hps Efraim has (swarm attack). That's why if you're really wounded, it might go down to 13-0.

Then when I open a category (say to look at all the swords), it would be very nice if I had a menu option to go "Back" to the list of categories. Instead I have to leave the item browsing interface entirely (either by selecting an item or choosing "Exit").

This. That could be quite useful. (though, if i look back from when i started, the item system already did an awesome progress)

I guess what I wanted from that scenario was not to make Argan faster, but a way to turn off the endless bat spawn. Maybe there is one and I missed it.

There is one, but it wastes 2-5 turns depending on luck. Just using Lethalia and Efraim to give yourself 3-4 bats (when you're on the cliff), and then use those to spawn-kill the new ones.

[Scrapulous]

@Konrad2: It was a while ago that I played the scenario, and I was still quite new to LotI, but it seemed that when Efraim zombified one bat, two more would kill the bat that was just zombified. For instance

Code: Select all

                 b
 A    L Ebbb
              b

Efraim (E) attacks a bat (b) and creates a zombie bat (z):

Code: Select all

                 b
 A    L Ezbb
              b

Then the surrounding bats attack the zombie bat (z) and kill it:

Code: Select all

             b
 A    L E bb
             b

resulting in the same situation that we started with: a bunch of bats, no zombie bats. And another bat has generated and joined the pack. No progress. In very rare cases the zombie bat survives this process, but it wasn't very common in my game.


@Raijer:

From what i know, you might have encountered a bug where knockback kicks out an unit out of the map if it was close to the border.

I saw that report a few pages back, but this has happened nowhere near the edge of maps before, too. I will try to find a save file.

If you watch carefully, you might see that it depends on the % of max hps Efraim has (swarm attack). That's why if you're really wounded, it might go down to 13-0.

Ha ha ha ha, how did I not notice that it has swarm? I think it's funny that my bug report was basically a description of swarm (without an understanding that it was E's hit points that were causing the reduction in attacks). Thanks for the clarification

if i look back from when i started, the item system already did an awesome progress

I hope my comment didn't come across as criticism. I love LotI's item system. I make this suggestion as a possibility for a small improvement, not to criticize something that works very well for me and that I get a lot of enjoyment from.

There is one, but it wastes 2-5 turns depending on luck. Just using Lethalia and Efraim to give yourself 3-4 bats (when you're on the cliff), and then use those to spawn-kill the new ones.

2-5 turns would be a bargain compared to the 30 or so that I wasted trying to manage the bat situation. I'll remember this for when I inevitably replay this campaign.

[Dugi]

Hello, Scrapulous.

Thanks for words of approval.

I didn't know that knockback has so many issues. I have seen the target unit disappear a few times, but I usually assumed that I haven't noticed where was the unit moved. Considering the issues you're writing about, I guess it would be the best to completely rewrite the knockback code to make sure that it won't cause trouble, especially to make it have no effect if there is no suitable target hex to move it or if the unit is dying. The code looks currently like a piece of very old code with a dozen of patches adding workarounds for various problems.

I think I'll add the back button to the item storage, I was annoyed by its absence sometimes too.

When it comes to Argan's movement in that bats' cave scenario, the fact is that I added an item that allows easy movement through caves sometime after Hex' disappearance (and it isn't uncommon). Maybe it doesn't help particularly to Argan in that scenario, but generally it will have some effect.
Hex had issues with bats on the hard difficulty where I don't want to decrease their quantity because hard is supposed to be hard, but I am heeding your demands and decreasing their difficulty on easy (there will be far more level 0 bats than level 1 bats than before). There's no way to remove the bats' spawning, because the scenario without it would be pretty much like fighting one enemy pack, waiting to recover, fighting another enemy pack etc, boring.

I am still interested in seeing reports of English mistakes and typos (also bad wording and such). I am fixing all I am told about, but there's nothing much to discuss about it so there isn't much discussion about it. Just in advance, if you report them, please don't make many posts about it, better instead edit your older posts if I haven't replied to them yet.

Thanks for the suggestions regarding names, I wish you had posted that earlier... the fact is that the campaign is close to being complete, I'll release it most likely during the next week. So I had to figure out some names myself, filled them with whatever I could think of. So I named the characters mostly after some less-known people from history.
While coding, many details of the story became much more important and I had to change a few personalities and add a few characters. I like some of the names you suggested, so I'll use them somehow:
Marian - this is quite a common name in some countries and giving it to a controversial character might piss off some people
Einhard - good name; the character already has a name, but I was still wondering how to name his successor so he'll be named Einhard
Bofur - sounds too much Tolkienish and not very wesnoth-human
Al-Ghareeb - I named him Saladin, not quite sure what's better now
Sicaria - awesome! renaming will cause some mess with my older save files, but a name like this is worth the nuisance
Jarn - Konrad2 asked me to name him Konrad and it sounds a bit more lordish IMO
Silvio - like before, also he wasn't supposed to live in distant south and furthermore there was a character named Silvio Forel in Game of Thrones and I have a feeling that the campaign already resembles Game of Thrones more than I want
Gorales - I'd fear that giving this name to such a jerk might offend some people, 'Goral' means 'Highlander' in Polish and similar words are used in many nearby places for people who live in mountains
Still, Sicaria is an awesome name, thanks for that.

[Scrapulous]

I'm glad the feedback was useful!

By suggesting removing the bats' spawning, I meant that I wondered if there is something I could have done in the scenario, like sending a bat to a far corner and somehow disrupting their nest or whatever. But you're right, the scenario would be less interesting without constant bats.

Thanks for the suggestions regarding names, I wish you had posted that earlier... the fact is that the campaign is close to being complete, I'll release it most likely during the next week.

!! If you had given me a choice between "having my suggested names in the scenario" and "having the scenario done so soon," I would have chosen having the scenario done sooner, so this state of affairs suits me just fine. I'm glad one of the names works for you! BTW, the Silvio I was thinking of was Berlusconi (clever, loves profit perhaps too much - but probably too political, which is why I thought of it more as a jokey suggestion), but I had forgot about the GoT character. And I never knew that 'Goral' meant 'Highlander.' This is what I get for suggesting names that other people came up with! As for Saladin vs. Al-Ghareeb, I think Saladin is a good name, and already in the scenario, so why not stick with that?

[Raijer]

Well, while Al-Ghareeb and Saladin both sound good, IMHO Saladin seems too generic to me, and i would push for Al-Ghareeb (though if it's a pain to change, don't).

I have a feeling that the campaign already resembles Game of Thrones more than I want

There's never too much GoT!!! (Just kidding, this campaign looks like it will be awesome already)

Anyway,the fact that it will be out this week is perfect, i will be sure to play it a lot.

[Scrapulous]

Some typos:

The Pit (Chap 3, Scen 5?)

"Fools, you have closed the portal! We were so close! You have no idea what power oppose! Feel our wrath, scum!"

I think it should be "what power you oppose".


Ch 4, Sc 4, opening dialogue:

Lethalia: "It certainly reminds me one story."

Maybe "It certainly reminds me of one story."


Lomir: "The town's simple-minded folk could not accept the use of such dark tricks even if it would keep them for destruction."

I think more accurate is "The town's simple-minded folk could not accept the use of such dark tricks even though it kept them from destruction." "For" is definitely not right, and I think changing the sentence from using "if" to "though" is more correct.

[Dugi]

@Scrapulous
That guy in Game of Thrones was named Syrio, not Silvio, my bad. Don't know why that name immediately reminded me of that character. Still, the guy wasn't so bad that he would deserve being named after Berlusconi .

Thanks for the typo info, the corrections will be published with the next update (which will most likely come out next week too because the new campaign is using this campaign as resources for items and units and I needed to add a few features to ensure compatibility).

@Raijer
Well, as there are currently more votes for Al Ghareeb than for Saladin, I'll rename him (it won't cause much trouble, I can just use a program to replace all 'Saladin' strings by 'Al Ghareeb' and it will work, just that trick will not work on save files and they will have to be edited one by one).

[dabber]

On bats in Argan's first scenario, you can find a spot to block the passage, and then the bats turn into an XP farm. On the east side of the map, before meeting the dragon, I parked one hero in a village where he ZOC blocked the path. A bat moves up, hero kills it, repeat. I may have crafted a marksman weapon at first, and every so often one bat would get past, but mostly that hero just gained a bunch of XP. Obviously that only works if you can kill the dragon with just 2 of the characters and maybe a couple bats for fodder.
Early in the campaign, with few items around, right before triggering the end of most scenarios, I went around and de-equipped everyone except the heroes. When I first meet undead Argan, I had Mountain Walking boots to give him.


On the gold spam in chapter 3, I agree that it is too much. A few ideas:
1) Make the chapter 3 units not loyal.
2) On the larger maps, map village gold 0, but set the base income to something non-trivial (10, 20?). Villages still help with gold slightly (upkeep of non-loyals), but won't grant income.
3) Reduce scenario gold carryover to a much lower percentage, instead of 100% every scenario.
4) Put in a check at the start of every scenario that limits initial gold to some amount, such as twice or triple the scenario minimum.

Generally I found chapter 3 really easy on HARD. Even after adding editing the scenario files to add 40% damage to all most enemies via a recruit event, it was a fun casual romp until the many dragons in the last two scenarios.

[Konrad2]

@dabber
i mostly agree with you, i only disagree about the last scenarii being hard. they were just as much a walk in a park.

[dabber]

Another thought about chapter 3 - in 3.08 Lost, the dragon could really use regen. Before I found him, someone else had beaten him up badly, so he was died once he got in range for me to attack him.

@dabber
i mostly agree with you, i only disagree about the last scenarii being hard. they were just as much a walk in a park.

I lost a couple real guys against the horde of dragons with +40% damage.
I was trying to level regular troops more, so Efraim didn't have the best equipment, and when he was suddenly alone in the last scenario, I couldn't come close to surviving. Once I gave him a couple better pieces of equipment (the better sword was probably most important), it was doable, but I think he still consumed a couple healing potions.

[dabber]

General question: Various units get AMLAs giving them new attacks with special properties (slow, mayhem, horrid, etc). I think these attacks gain no benefit from improving the main attack, and gain no benefit from a weapon. But I think they do gain benefit from something that improves magical damage. Is that correct?
(EDIT) The above paragraph is totally wrong. I have no idea what I was thinking. My apologies.

Even more generally, what gains from items that improve magical damage? Is it any attack that doesn't have a known weapon name?


Textual error:
Definition of Elvish Overlord has an advancement with text "scaring enemies with the sword attack better", but he does not have a scary attack. It should say something like "more damage with the spiderweb sword".

I'd prefer the AMLA descriptions indicated whether it was more attacks or more damage. Often, Elvish Overlord being an example, all advancements are named something like "better in melee combat". It would be more precise to say "faster with the sword" (for more attacks), or "hitting harder with the sword" (for more damage). Also once you add new melee attacks (spiderwebs, scary, doom, etc), the description of "better in melee combat" is not accurate; it should be "better with sword". Obviously this isn't worth the time to do en masse, but maybe is worth doing when editing a unit for a more important reason.
Example attached.

[dabber]

Crafted item Widowmaker says it has the charge ability, which implies Charging 2, but it actually has Charging 3. Although that looks difficult to fix.

Efraim's Fury attack gains weapon specials and damage benefits from his sword, but not damage type changes. That seems odd.

[Dugi]

I will think about that chapter 3-related suggestion, a change like this would be very important and should not be done haphazardly.

The AMLAs that give new attacks add attacks whose damage is based on the damage of an attack. If the base attack improves, the bonus attack's damage will improve too. I have seen it happen yesterday.

Better with - damage or attacks? -> this is usually visible on the character screen, but I might change it to make it less ambiguous.

Charging x3 on Widowmaker. Thinking whether I should change it to normal charge or change the name.

Efraim's fury does not change type because of possible exploits. Imagine that you use that leeching attack against undead if the damage type is arcane - they'll fall like nothing. There aren't many enemies against whom is blade damage super-effective. That's why I intentionally made its damage type always blade.

_________________

I have made an update to Legend of the Invincibles. It contains fixes for most of the bugs mentioned before. It also adds the promised return button to the item storage's subfolders to allow you to return to the list of item types.

_________________

After 5 weeks of working, I have released the new campaign I promised. Its length is comparable to a LotI chapter or maybe a bit longer, but it has a lot of dialogue that makes its scenario code as long as three LotI chapters. It mostly uses LotI mechanics, but its plot is only very weakly related to LotI (I wouldn't even call it a spin-off). I called the version beta because it may have various issues, but it doesn't lack any scenarios or something.