Factions

[Elvish_Pillager]

How about it?

Drakes in general are overpowered, is what I say. I don't necessarially think Drakes are the most powerful faction. As for myself, I consider that although I do as well playing Drakes as any other faction, I am not skilled with them, and any skilled player who thinks Drakes are not powerful no-doubt can defeat a non-skilled drake player easily.

To be specific, I can beat newbies easily when I use Drakes and hardly when they do, but against experienced players, I wield them awkwardly though effectively; It feels like power without skill, but can lose against a skilled opponent. I don't recall a game where I have won against a skilled Drake player. In fact, I don't recall a game where I have fought against a drake player I could be sure was skilled, I only recall that in the ones I lost, my opponent was not foolish.

Your challenge, by the way is no-where near fair, considering that on average, if no other factors are taken into consideration, you allow me to pick from 1/6 of players while you pick from 5/6.

What does a Rebel player recruit against massed Burners?

[squasher]

rebels=lose.

elves die easy. especially when a mauler finds them.

no dragon controls maulers

[unsung]

what are you t alking about? last time I checked we didn't have dragons in wesnoth. and maluers do own elves because the elf troops do like 2 damage per attack to them. plus back him up wiith a halberdier, some royal guards, a grand marshal (fall your knees and worship these guys!) and some javlineers and the elves wouldn't have a chance.


and if by dragons you meant drakes, the humans can easily kill drakes with their pointy sticks of impalement especially when they have pikemen or javlineers. and th emauler is likely to be effective against saurians. since he can probably kill them in one shot (I think).
and have you seen what humans do to gliders/flyers and burners?

[unsung]

How about it?

What does a Rebel player recruit against massed Burners?

archers. pierce ranged to counter the fire breath.
or you use spearmen, horsemen and javlineers (javlineers are ridisulously eefectiuve agianst them as we all know.) oh, wait, you can't.

[Elvish_Pillager]

archers. pierce ranged to counter the fire breath.

Fire breath is 6-4 and arrows, with the 20% weakness, are also 6-4. The Drake has more HP and more manuverability and is Lawful and has a much better melee attack, although he has less defense and costs more. On a small map, Burners can menace and/or kill the archers in the initial Day and take most of the map, thereby winning. On a slightly larger map, they may only fight to a draw, but that is assuming a larger map which is not too common in MP.

[unsung]

yes but you have nothing better to use. if you stay in the forest/mountains or have a (loyalist would probably be best) ally to finish them off, it would probably betetr than most strategies.

[Doc Paterson]

archers. pierce ranged to counter the fire breath.

Fire breath is 6-4 and arrows, with the 20% weakness, are also 6-4.

Oddly enough, the Elves have it a bit worse than this. The pierce weakness is only 10 percent, which leaves the Archers stuck at 5-4. (5.5, game rounds down). If, however, the archer is dexterous, we get 6.6 and a consistant 7-4.

The Drake has more HP and more manuverability and is Lawful and has a much better melee attack, although he has less defense and costs more. On a small map, Burners can menace and/or kill the archers in the initial Day and take most of the map, thereby winning.

I've never had much trouble killing Burners with Archers, so long as I'm picking my battles carefully. The maneuverability differential is not much on most maps; they do fly, but it's a slow flight, and your zero penalty in forests and one extra move pretty much insure that your units are on their level for maps like Charge. How is it that you're engaging them by turns 2-3? If you're playing it right, you'll almost never have to face them during the first day (remember also, they've spent an absurd amount of money on that pack of Burners, and if they go right for you, bypassing villages, they'll be economically doomed). They'd have to be rushing you for this to happen, in which case you'd be fighting them on villages you've taken, surviving (with normal or even slightly below normal luck) and inflicting massive damage. This sort of thing is why being lawful isn't an advantage on a map like Charge, unless you're trying something wild and unreliable like a Horseman rush. A Burner rush, like most any other lawful rush, can't create advantageous battles by the time night begins to fall. They might get a kill; maybe even 2 kills on the luckiest of days, but they'll almost always have put themself in a terrible position to do it, terrain or village-wise. You seemed to think that Burners can "take control of the map during the initial day," but really, the "control" is illusory, and if you keep your cool and make them attack you, the assault will fizzle.

I'll bet it would shed some light on the situation if you played an MP local player (you) versus you game; pick Drakes and hire all burners with P1 on Charge, then hire all Archers (and maybe a scout) with player 2 Elves. Try playing this out, being very conservative with the Elves and very aggressive and reckless with the Drakes. This sort of thing helps me when I'm puzzling over a particular strategy that may at first seem too abusive.

*****

And I know that challenge wasn't the fairest; it was just a complicated way of saying, "You should stop saying 'Drakes are overpowered' and 'We know Drakes are overpowered,'" when the results of most high-level games indicate otherwise, and, the "we" being referenced is somewhat irrelevant, doesn't hold much weight, and includes a lot of lower level players (noobs complaining about Drakes are very common, as you know, and would no doubt comprise a large portion of your '1/6th of players').

But enough of that. Seriously, you should try that you vs. you game (and maybe post it?) I honestly think it would help.

[squasher]

what are you t alking about? last time I checked we didn't have dragons in wesnoth. and maluers do own elves because the elf troops do like 2 damage per attack to them.
[...]
and have you seen what humans do to gliders/flyers and burners?

geez...
yes, I accidently wrote dragons where I had to type Drakes due to confusing crossfire with wesnoth.

What I was talking about? oh, some guy named unsung wrote, in reply on "rebels own drakes" that maulers (not maluers) are the elves nemesis. Sounds a little twisted, sounds like confusing Drakes and Loyalists. This is to say that Drakes can easily beat Loyalist for the Maulers the Drake side has will crush the Rebel's Elves. That ... euh ... weird twist of his mind I was talking about.

[Disto]

what are you t alking about? last time I checked we didn't have dragons in wesnoth. and maluers do own elves because the elf troops do like 2 damage per attack to them.
[...]
and have you seen what humans do to gliders/flyers and burners?

geez...
yes, I accidently wrote dragons where I had to type Drakes due to confusing crossfire with wesnoth.

What I was talking about? oh, some guy named unsung wrote, in reply on "rebels own drakes" that maulers (not maluers) are the elves nemesis. Sounds a little twisted, sounds like confusing Drakes and Loyalists. This is to say that Drakes can easily beat Loyalist for the Maulers the Drake side has will crush the Rebel's Elves. That ... euh ... weird twist of his mind I was talking about.

I think he's talking about the Gladiator line, not the the heavy infantry in the loyalists.

[Elvish_Pillager]

I'm afraid I didn't see what else I could do, as rebels. The Drake player was plenty reckless. And plenty lucky.

[telly]

Charge isn't a very good map for rebels and without the first turn they don't have any really good options vs any faction.

I think your initial recruitment was wrong though. Archers are good but if you only have five units and then one gets killed by player 1's initial attack you are pretty much doomed. I think either four archers and two fighters or just seven fighters is much better. With four archers and two fighters you could put the elf fighters forward the first turn. If the drake fighters attack your fighters they'll take a lot more damage and maybe let you finish them off with your archers. A different leader as well, either captain, ranger or sorceress would of been a lot better. I guess you went random though and didn't have a choice.

[Elvish_Pillager]

...

This was a testing game as per Doc Paterson's suggestion.

[telly]

Ah shows much attention I was paying and the drakes had burners not fighters even.

Anyway though, doc asked you to play conservatively with the elves but you moved half your units forward in the second turn to where they could be attacked with leadership and daylight bonuses. And you had the best drake leader and about the worst for the rebels. I tried it, emulating your drake tactics as best I could but with a different leader and keeping the archers back in the second turn and the rebels won.

[telly]

Does saving and reloading always break replays? I had to reload after I ended a turn early by accident and the replay didn't work. Played again but didn't attack so much with the burners this time as the first game, maybe was too cautious and counted a lot more mistakes on the drakes part than the rebels.

[Nicolas]

All are good

Rebels:fast+bows
Humans:Pierce and blade fighting +mages
Orcs:Fighting,orcish assassins
Undead:defense + fighting
Drakes:fire+weapon choice
Saurians:skirmisher
Dwarves:defence+guns+berserker