[Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

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What kind of recall list would you like to have?

Big Recall List of multiple units belonging to various factions
18
40%
Small dedicated recall list + loyal units
13
29%
Loyal units Only + occasional recruits
2
4%
Changing recall list (new one every episode or so)
3
7%
Transferrable recall list
3
7%
Commander-role loyal unit with his faction recruits/recalls
6
13%
 
Total votes: 45

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Lord-Knightmare
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[Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Hello everyone!

This was brought up in a conversation and I am curious to know what the thoughts of the community are on the topic of recall list compositions?
This is mostly for long campaigns, which I have meant a campaign that might be over 13 scenarios in length. I just took 13 as an arbitrary number of scenarios but you get the gist.
  • Would you like to keep like a large recall list made of several races, unit types and representing multiple factions (maybe like 7 or so)?
  • Would you prefer a small dedicated recall list of a single faction plus any loyal units you have gained on your missions?
  • Just the loyal units?
  • Would you like your recall list to change as the campaign progresses or just keep them from the first scenario to the final scenario?
  • How would you feel if your members of a certain faction in your recall list was transferred to an ally who would be recalling them on your behalf?
  • Having a sub-commander role unit who gives you access to certain recruits/recalls but you lose them all if this special commander dies?
I have added six options but if you have anymore options, feel free to state them.
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Zrevnur
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Zrevnur »

Lord-Knightmare wrote: January 20th, 2021, 12:08 am This was brought up in a conversation and I am curious to know what the thoughts of the community are on the topic of recall list compositions?
This is mostly for long campaigns, which I have meant a campaign that might be over 13 scenarios in length. I just took 13 as an arbitrary number of scenarios but you get the gist.
Unfortunately I dont understand "the gist" at all - are you asking about how I make my recall lists or are you implying that the campaign maker 100% determines the recall list? Or sth else? Because for me min-maxing always plays a major role. So if I get to decide on the recall list then most of the questions dont make proper sense to me. Obviously I will prefer better units and if I dont know the campaign yet I will try to be flexible.
Lord-Knightmare wrote: January 20th, 2021, 12:08 am [*] How would you feel if your members of a certain faction in your recall list was transferred to an ally who would be recalling them on your behalf?
This is very bad - see LoW. It breaks the basic rule of keeping recall list units. Due to that any strategy going into recall list goes 'poof' and I would have been better off making more gold or sth instead. BfW is supposed to be a strategy game and not a screw-with-the-player-know-it-or-lose kind of game.

Edit: If this isnt done after-the-fact but properly communicated right at the beginning (meaning when I first get access to those units, not necessarily the beginning of the campaign) then it wouldnt be so bad.

Lord-Knightmare wrote: January 20th, 2021, 12:08 am [*] Having a sub-commander role unit who gives you access to certain recruits/recalls but you lose them all if this special commander dies?
As long as this is properly communicated to the player and the 'dieing' part isnt scripted (and unpredictably so) this may make sense - I wouldnt have an issue with it.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by lhybrideur »

Zrevnur wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:00 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: January 20th, 2021, 12:08 am [*] Having a sub-commander role unit who gives you access to certain recruits/recalls but you lose them all if this special commander dies?
As long as this is properly communicated to the player and the 'dieing' part isnt scripted (and unpredictably so) this may make sense - I wouldnt have an issue with it.
About that, I'm currently writing a campaign in which you can recruit "heroes" that add an unit type to you recruit list that disappear when they die. It is written "You can now recruit X" when you recruit the hero and "You can no longer recruit X" when he/she dies. Do you think this is enough or should it be more explicit ?

Another thing is that you can still recall units of this type and their level-up when the hero dies. Does it seems logical or not at all ?

Sorry for the partially irrelevant message.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

About that, I'm currently writing a campaign in which you can recruit "heroes" that add an unit type to you recruit list that disappear when they die. It is written "You can now recruit X" when you recruit the hero and "You can no longer recruit X" when he/she dies. Do you think this is enough or should it be more explicit ?
I think this is fine as the intended feature is conveyed to the player properly but when you first recruit the hero, you should also mention that losing him would disallow recruitment of his subordinates.
Another thing is that you can still recall units of this type and their level-up when the hero dies. Does it seems logical or not at all ?
This is fine. The recallable units might be inspired by their current leader and decide to stay under his command.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Zrevnur »

lhybrideur wrote: January 25th, 2021, 3:12 pm
Zrevnur wrote: January 22nd, 2021, 5:00 pm
Lord-Knightmare wrote: January 20th, 2021, 12:08 am [*] Having a sub-commander role unit who gives you access to certain recruits/recalls but you lose them all if this special commander dies?
As long as this is properly communicated to the player and the 'dieing' part isnt scripted (and unpredictably so) this may make sense - I wouldnt have an issue with it.
About that, I'm currently writing a campaign in which you can recruit "heroes" that add an unit type to you recruit list that disappear when they die. It is written "You can now recruit X" when you recruit the hero and "You can no longer recruit X" when he/she dies. Do you think this is enough or should it be more explicit ?
Normally recruitment is bound to the leader. So its not obvious that the death of some other unit would disable the ability to recruit some unit types. So in some manner at some point it should be made clear to the player that in your campaign recruitment ability of some unit types is enabled/limited by those "hero" units being alive.
The "You can now recruit X" phrase is (far as I remember) used elsewhere too. Like recruiting Horsemen in HttT. And it sticks with the leader there - even though you also get a loyal Horsemen at the same time the survival/death of him doesnt change that. So players may be conditioned to interpret you merely using this phrase as it working in the same manner as in HttT.
lhybrideur wrote: January 25th, 2021, 3:12 pm Another thing is that you can still recall units of this type and their level-up when the hero dies. Does it seems logical or not at all ?
From a gameplay-mechanical POV this make perfect sense: Recruitment and recalling are bound to the leader. Edit: There is also precedence (HttT Isle of the Dead: certain outlaw units can be recruited only there but recalled later too) that the ability to recruit and recall are not bound together.
From a fluff POV it depends how you write the story or what kind of story you write. It could be either. If there is a discrepancy between the two perspectives it should be explicitely pointed out how it works in your campaign though.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by lhybrideur »

Thank you to both of you for your answer.
I will add a sentence precising the mechanism at the beginning of the campaign.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by rocinante »

I like being able to recall all of the units but there are a few situations where removing units from the recall list could be useful. In Legend of the Invincibles the walking corpses are removed from the recall list because it's unlikely that you'd want to recall them. The same argument would apply to other level 0 units like mermen citizens and peasants if they don't have useful traits like loyalty, because you can often recruit new ones for less than 10 gold instead of spending 20 to recall them.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by name »

I choose the darkness. I choose no recall list. :shock:

Having persistent units (recalls) is great for open world campaigns like Bob the Mighty's excellent The Altaz Mariners. Because as times passes and events take place inside the campaign's dynamic game world, the enemy forces gather strength just as you do. Milking a scenario for experience actually wastes time that your enemy will use to grow stronger at a potentially higher rate than you.

But with the usual sequential scenario flow campaigns (like all existing mainline campaigns) having recalls more or less forces most scenarios to have turn limits and it makes the balance very sloppy, since each scenario has to be designed to work both for players that have a death squad of level 3 veterans in their recall list AND players that just lost most of their recalls the last scenario. That necessary balance slop greatly reduces how much fun each individual scenario can be, and the turn limit makes the experience of every scenario feel a bit rushed.

Ultimately, the worst thing that can happen to the player, is playing in 5 or 10 scenarios (several hours of game play, possibly spread out over days), scraping by and losing some important units along the way, but over all enjoying the challenge level... then they reach a scenario(s) that requires they had not lost so many white mages, or not lost so many of their elite melee-focused line holders... several scenarios ago. They still might be able to drag out the scenario and beat out the AI through attrition, except there is also that damn turn limit (which recalls and carryover make necessary to prevent milking). So the player keeps losing to the turn limit, maybe just 3 or 5 turns from achieving the scenario objective.

On paper, it seems like a great idea to play with a persistent army, to recall favorite units from an earlier battle, to pillage gold from chests and carry it with you on your warpath. But (outside of open world campaigns) you have little to no foreknowledge of what later scenarios will be like, and little to no ability to stop the flow of scenarios to grind and rebuild your strength (like you could in most RPGs). So you, as the player, have to blindly guess at when losses were too great to complete future scenarios you know nothing about; at what point you should just restart or save scum to prevent greater frustration several hours later.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by revolting_peasant »

I don't understand the poll nor how the different options relate.

What do you mean by "prefer"? Prefer for more challenging campaigns? For easier play? For randomization/replayability?

Anyway, most of the options you mention are for the campaign author to control. Some of the mainline campaigns limit the recall, or disallow it entirely etc.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by lea »

IMO balance-wise the issue with recall in BfW campaigns is that it (usually) has fixed cost
BfW 1.14 introduced ability to set arbitrary recall cost for each unit but how many campaigns use it?
and the issue with recall in single scenarios is that it is not used at all ;)

in any case removing units from recall list "for narrative reasons" and/or blocking an ability to recall (even for a single scenario) is very likely to upset the player, more so if it was not clearly communicated in advance
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by egallager »

lea wrote: January 21st, 2023, 11:38 am BfW 1.14 introduced ability to set arbitrary recall cost for each unit but how many campaigns use it?
Spannerbag's "AfterEI" does; I think I convinced Mirion147 to use it in "Up the River Bork" too... a few others whose names aren't coming to mind at the moment...
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

BfW 1.14 introduced ability to set arbitrary recall cost for each unit but how many campaigns use it?
and the issue with recall in single scenarios is that it is not used at all ;)
I guess one good thing would be recall costs for level 0s being 10g. No way gonna recall a stupid goblin for 20g when I can recruit 2 fresh ones for 2 gold less. level 1 recalls can have the WC-recall rule: recall cost is 15g if recruitment cost less than 20, and recall cost 20 if recruitment cost more than 20. I guess upping recall costs for level 4 and level 5 might make sense for some UMC. Level 3 recalls are the most common, so changing those values wouldn't impact much.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Helmet »

Maybe, the cost for recalling 0-level units could be the unit base cost plus 2 gold.

A big problem with recalling 0-level units is that they die easily and therefore waste gold. Making the recall of 0-level units cheaper would make it more reasonable to risk gold on recalling them.
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Lord-Knightmare »

Helmet wrote: January 21st, 2023, 3:30 pm Maybe, the cost for recalling 0-level units could be the unit base cost plus 2 gold.

A big problem with recalling 0-level units is that they die easily and therefore waste gold. Making the recall of 0-level units cheaper would make it more reasonable to risk gold on recalling them.
Are you suggesting this for UMC or for the game in general? The recruitment cost plus 2 seems doable easily for UMC and might make a player tempted to recall level 0s more or not simply delete from recall list (I do that. No regrets).
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Re: [Poll] Recall List Compositions for Long SP Campaigns

Post by Helmet »

UMC, but also I think it would be a good idea for the game in general, which, of course, would place it within all UMC by default.

The prices for 0-level units has an enormous range. Some are super cheap, some cost more than double the price of others. Because of their wide-ranging base costs, deciding whether or not to recall a 0-level unit is tough. A player can't have a one-size-fits-all policy like they may have with level-2 units (e.g., always recall level-2 units unless there's a reason not to).

Base cost plus 2 gold would make it a lot simpler for players. For example, if a 0-level unit has 1 XP, it's likely not worth recalling. If it has 7 XP, it's probably worth recalling. A player wouldn't have to calculate the odds of the unit earning more XP before being killed in one hit.
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