Why Fog of War Rules

General feedback and discussion of the game.

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Breeblebox
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Post by Breeblebox »

I think that last statement is very telling EP, you don't like suprises, and that is basically the crux of your gripe with FoW. I can understand this, and would suggest that this thread is not designed to make you change your mind, in fact it is not designed to be an argument.

In case anyone was wondering, I thought expressing these views might encourage those who are indifferent to FoW to try it out (seeing as default is FoW OFF). Call me selfish, but I'd love to join more games online where FoW is used =]

I prefer to take the 'encouragement' approach, rather than hunting for arguments.

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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Breeblebox wrote:I think that last statement is very telling EP, you don't like suprises, and that is basically the crux of your gripe with FoW. I can understand this, and would suggest that this thread is not designed to make you change your mind, in fact it is not designed to be an argument.
Actually, that's only half of it.
Breeblebox wrote:Cease Fire?
I have nothing to fire against. :D
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Post by SaintDust »

okay.. some like FoW.. some don't...
end of story..
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turin
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Post by turin »

SaintDust wrote:okay.. some like FoW.. some don't...
end of story..
and some have reasons not to like FOW. Don't forget that. :)


There ARE arguments against it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. There are no arguments for it. But that doesn't matter if you don't find the arguments against valid and you think it is fun...
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Jetrel
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Post by Jetrel »

I like both FoW, and non-FoW. Both in Wesnoth, and Warcraft III.


About the only unfair thing that happens is that in Warcraft III, the enemies know where your base is under FoW (to compensate for your being able to guess their position). There's nothing fun about being swamped by four undead players simultaneously with a ghoul rush.

However, Warcraft has a very elegant visibility system, which I like to play with. All of the magical effects one can use to scout with are also a good deal of fun.

Turning them off simplifies the game. Sometimes that is the kind of game I am in the mood for, sometimes it is not. This is why FoW is an OPTION, not a mandate.
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Post by Darth Fool »

turin wrote:
SaintDust wrote:okay.. some like FoW.. some don't...
end of story..
and some have reasons not to like FOW. Don't forget that. :)

There ARE arguments against it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. There are no arguments for it. But that doesn't matter if you don't find the arguments against valid and you think it is fun...
...And some have reasons to like FOW. Don't forget that :)
Thare ARE arguments FOR it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. If you don't find the arguments for it valid, and think it is fun to play without....
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turin
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Post by turin »

Darth Fool wrote:
turin wrote: and some have reasons not to like FOW. Don't forget that. :)

There ARE arguments against it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. There are no arguments for it. But that doesn't matter if you don't find the arguments against valid and you think it is fun...
...And some have reasons to like FOW. Don't forget that :)
Thare ARE arguments FOR it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. If you don't find the arguments for it valid, and think it is fun to play without....
Nothing stated so far looks like an argument to me, they just look like "I like FoW". Can you please show me these arguments?
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Post by Gafgarion »

turin wrote:
Darth Fool wrote: ...And some have reasons to like FOW. Don't forget that :)
Thare ARE arguments FOR it. Some may not think they are valid, but they are there. If you don't find the arguments for it valid, and think it is fun to play without....
Nothing stated so far looks like an argument to me, they just look like "I like FoW". Can you please show me these arguments?
If you don't think the arguements for FoW are arguements, then you shouldn't think that the arguements against FoW are arguements either. Both hinge totally on "I like FoW" or "I don't like FoW".
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Post by Darth Fool »

Gafgarion wrote:
turin wrote: Nothing stated so far looks like an argument to me, they just look like "I like FoW". Can you please show me these arguments?
If you don't think the arguements for FoW are arguements, then you shouldn't think that the arguements against FoW are arguements either. Both hinge totally on "I like FoW" or "I don't like FoW".
What he said.

But seriously, playing w/ or w/o FoW really does have an effect on the type of game you are playing and what strategies dominate. If you play without it, your strategies inevitably revolve around tactical considerations: what units to recruit given the terrain/opponents, where is the optimum place to have battles take place. This is a perfectly fine game to play. If you play w/ Fog, then the game becomes a different beast. There are still all the issues associated with normal play, but their are additional considerations that you have to take into account which revolve around the fact that you and your opponent do not have complete knowledge. Thus strategies of deception and scouting become important. The value of units also change. Movement becomes more important both for scouting and the ability to react to surprises. Units that are less specialized may be more useful because they have a better ability to deal with unknown opponents. People who do not like the effort associated with these sorts of strategies typically hate fog of War, and I imagine hate games like Stratego and Scotland yard, where they play an even bigger role. People who have a favorite set of units to play with in non-fog of war games may also dislike FoW games because they find that the unit balance and strategies they have devised and got used to don't work. As someone has already pointed out, some people hate surprises and having to take steps to defend against or at least get warning of attacks that might never come. So, in conclusion, playing with FoW adds new dimensions to the available strategies, which to some is a welcome and refreshing experience, and to others is unnecessary complexity.
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Post by turin »

OK, now the reasoning actually makes sense... i disagree with it, but it makes sense.


Oddly enough, i really like stratego and other games (computer or no) that have FoW like structures. I just think it fits badly with wesnoth.
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Post by Elvish_Pillager »

Darth Fool wrote:Stratego and Scotland yard, where they play an even bigger role.
I've never heard of either, but this premise generally holds true:
"A game based on one element of play tends to be balanced for that element."
Thus, Wesnoth with Fog may be unbalanced, but a "FoW Strategy" game with Fog is not, and I may like it.
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AkitoScorpio
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Post by AkitoScorpio »

Some of the people i've played with online (Mainly in th e sprite comic chatroom I hang out in) We like fog of war off, then again we also go and have fun between turns by randomly labing things.... nothing says fun like a Laid back game in which one player happily anouces his location with a lavel saying "Comoes's house of dwarvish prostitution"
altuar
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Post by altuar »

I dont play without FoW. For me, half the fun of the game is strategy - operational movement involving defensive 'holding' formations, hard hitting, flanking manuevers, prioritizing reinforcement allocations, whether and when to commit reserves, and so on. Without FoW, many of the decisions regarding strategic planning become mechanical, if not totally effaced in their essence as 'decisions.'

This is also the main reason why I prefer bigger maps with more room to manuever than the smaller ones.

It is still the tactical aspect of the game that wins or loses battles, but strategy can spell the difference between a brilliant victory, and a long, attrititional 50-turn battle that leaves too many virtual Wesnothians dead and me slightly bored.
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Post by Sombra »

Looking at this old discusion I think its interessting to see how many players argued against FOW. How many games on MP are played without it..... 20%max?

THe point of reviving this thread is to push for adaptions (ZOC like FOW)

and only to inclued it as an option....

Personally I think its a littleb it sad that a game like Wesnoth with 1000s of players has so little discussions about strategy, good moves as it has today ... Its like it is as all about strategy has already been said.

Stay on good terrain, be aware of the time of day ...read the players guiide... ugghh..... There must be more to war :P
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Post by Noy »

HE's talking about a thread he made where he has a proposal to have FOW linked to movement distance of a unit (which is also affected by zoc. That also means this is a metathread.

Sombra, seriously, its not going to happen for the time being, especially now when we are trying to get out 1.4. As you can see nobody picked up on your idea the first time, reraising it constantly doesn't help your case at all.

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