Bad manners?

[Zachron]

I don't think vulgarity is permited, so much as, it's incredibly difficult to moderate harsh language because of how few moderators there actually are. By informing a moderator of every single swear word that comes across, one might try said moderator's patience, making it harder to warrant said moderator's attention when a case of real abuse occurs. People are going to sometimes be crude in online games. The "relative anonymity" of the environment gives many an opportunity to let their hair down so to speak, especially with younger people. The prepubes and the teens see the internet as a place where they can say whatever they can't say in the company of their parents, siblings, and/or irl friends... This is a major contirbutor to why XBox live, is an bottomless pit of endless swearwords, consisting of constant insults that take tones that are(including but not limited to) racist, homophobic, xenophobic, misogynistic, anti-american, anti-non-american, or sometimes all of the above.(Wesnoth has not become as such because, while Wesnoth has managed to attract quite a few of this demographic, the main effort of the moderation is to prevent an abusive atmosphere from taking shape.) Crudeness in gaming is natural. What makes a mature gamer is understanding the difference between vulgarity and obscenity. My best summation is the following: Vulgarity is open or "naked" speech, whereas obscenity is abusive, inappropriate, and/or derogatory speech. Whether something is vulgar is determined by the speech itself, but whether something is obscene is determined by the context and application of said speech. Vulgarity is not necessarily obscene, and obscenity need not be vulgar. In fact obscenity is far more insidious if it is subtle. (A lot of material that Disney, Nickelodeon, and Cartoon Network have exposed children to for the past few decades comes to mind here.)

[Euthanatos93]

I don't think CN or Disney were ever really that subtle with some of their obscenities. Rather I just think that pop culture has become blind to certain obscenities and overly sensitive to others.

I think it an obscenity itself to attempt to police 'obscene language' because while there may be a standard lexicon on what is vulgar/obscene it becomes an arduous process of deliberation to arbitrate some more obscure/debatable linguistics. patricularily in a multi-lingual/international community.

However, the moderation of abuse makes a lot more sense in an effort to achieve a more pleasant community.

[Mystique]

I am a person which apologizes for unusual Luck, if my opponent did his best and lost (maybe only) because he had luck disadvantages,
not because I feel that i made something wrong, or feel kind of guilty, but because i am Sorry to see somebody losing who would have (possibly) won under "even" conditions, to show my respect for the good game, and to make clear that i played stronger than my skill Level would normally allow...

[energyman76c]

I am a person which apologizes for unusual Luck, if my opponent did his best and lost (maybe only) because he had luck disadvantages,
not because I feel that i made something wrong, or feel kind of guilty, but because i am Sorry to see somebody losing who would have (possibly) won under "even" conditions, to show my respect for the good game, and to make clear that i played stronger than my skill Level would normally allow...

so you are a sportsman and I applaud you for that. Seriously.

[Zachron]

Eh, I prefer to Thank my opponent for their bad luck myself.

[Araja]

"Thanks for the bad luck you decided to use in our match, it made the game much easier for me to win"?

[Caphriel]

"Hey, thanks for hiring blind archers, it makes my job easier! :]"

[Euthanatos93]

because i am Sorry to see somebody losing who would have (possibly) won under "even" conditions,

again....if you don't feel guilty....if you don't feel liek you did something wrong....why the hell are you apologizing?

Moreover....BOTH attendants chose to play wesnoth. Wesnoth is game of Luck AND strategy. Mostly strategy but the fact that luck exists means when the RNG is in an odd mood you can recieve a serious shaft despite the best strategies.

If you have good sportsmanship the appropriate response is to say GG. ALWAYS. If you feel the match was unduly influenced by luck or you felt that your opponant played extremely well and that you received a seriously game-deciding share of good luck then the appropriate comment is something to the effect of "Well played." Acklowledging that despite your win, your opponant played with skill and provided you with a worthy challenge which will be present in ANY game except in only the most improbable games.

[Tonepoet]

So Euthanatos93, we're supposed to hold people to the exact letter of their words, rather than their obvious meaning? That's a little obtuse, don't you think?

Also, concerning people who die, you fail to consider the relative scale. There are far too many people in the world dying at this very moment to actively concern ourselves with. We'd not be left with a moment's peace with the current rate of death tolls, as not even seconds go by. It's not for a lack of compassion that we lack this concern but rather because the sheer magnitude of it is literally mind numbing. The people who're more directly relevant to our lives are scarcer and of greater importance to us.

What does this mean? Essentially there's a magnitude of scale to be considered. The way somebody feel about a person personally is going to have an effect upon the emotional impact it has upon them. After-all, if my mother were to die tomorrow, how would you feel about it? Even if you show some level of concern for her as a person, I'd be an absolute driveling wreck. In this sense, it is my loss or at least my greater loss, much moreso than yours. In such cases, such a phrase is perfectly appropriate and very simplistically concise which is why it's so widespread. Now these words can be said in a very insincere manner but this is not the fault of the words, so much as it is the way the person speaks them.

In other words, it's all about how we read into both context and subtext, as well as what the person actually meant by them. This ties back into the subject at hand because this sort of concept can apply to linguistics as a whole, as misinterpretation in this case is quite synonymous with miscommunication, so if we are not to practice in the latter we have to be quite astute in the former.

Think about the situation at hand. What just happened? How good of a move did they make? How big of a chance did you just take? How would you feel if you were put in the same position? If the entirety of somebody's game relied upon their Ulfserker killing an adept in a single turn and it fails, I could see how it'd be rather frustrating. While it would probably be more accurate to say "It's too bad that you were so unlucky." colloquially it's more or less the same to say "Sorry for the bad luck." or perhaps in a two party scenario the contextually synonymous phrase "Sorry for the luck." This means it can easily be said in simple recognition for the failure of a good move.

Granted it can be said in a rather gloatsome manner because you may've thought your own move was quite solid. However to necessarily read into it like that, it'd have to be either have to be rather quite contextually sarcastic such as "Sorry that my Dwarvish Thunderer killed your 18 hitpoint Spearman in the water." or "Sorry I took 100% over evaluated" or pointed out as such with tonality, the means of which can be rather hard to read on the web.

Always.

Which is to say unless you have an emoticon for those of you who didn't catch it.

So just why do we say such things when the situation was out of our control? I'm quite sorry to say that this should be quite obvious. We're not doing so on the behalf of ourselves but rather that we feel the circumstances are quite unfortunate and that we'd have rather wished to have seen better ourselves. Fate just would not let it be though, so we have to apologize upon its behalf, since it would not do so for itself. In other words, you're under the impression that apologies assume ownership, whilst this does not necessarily need to be the case. You can theoretically apologize for anything you find regretful, even if it's primarily supposed to be geared for yourself.

About the good game thing, I quite dislike that situation. This is in part because the term is quite expressly meant to point out exceptional games in its rawest form, so anything less than that, especially if the game was quite obviously ruddy, seems a bit sarcastic in my eyes. The sincerity of the term, in this sense, also seems to lose meaning to the point where it might as well not even be said anymore at all. I have learned to abide by it regardless, since it is as expected as you claim it is but that doesn't necessarily mean I have to like it...

[Sangel]

Speaking of manners, actually, let's try to tone down the abrasiveness in this thread. After all, it would truly be a bitter irony for people to end up feeling insulted in a thread devoted to civility and manners.

[silent]

Despite my poor attitude when a large difference forms between damage inflicted and damage taken, if it's one thing that I seem to find a pattern from hindsight, it is that the RNG usually seems to be positive for me if I have done something right during the game, and worse for me if I have made several poor choices in the game.

Not always true, and just a bit of a myth like all other RNG related issues, but one that seems to be a common trend for me, and something that may be worth looking at after a game.

[Euthanatos93]

So Euthanatos93, we're supposed to hold people to the exact letter of their words, rather than their obvious meaning? That's a little obtuse, don't you think?

Perhaps it is but otoh why on Earth would you say something completely different than that which you mean simply because everyone does so without know why.

I could quite understand if there was a historical context for saying things like this. But there is none other than the fact that people have done so and it has become a sort of accepted lexicon without reason or history. We just do it....and we don't know why.

I do not in fact, ever, make this point at a funeral. It would be more insensitive than abusing and absurd tradition that is without origin or reason. I do however feel it is quite appropriate to discuss it here because it is the nature of the conversation. I'm not saying that people who say this are bad or stupid for doing so. Perhaps....thoughtless at worst as if baseless tradition were more important than expressing ourselves in way thart says exactly what we mean.

No matter how many times people say it's acceptable just because people accept it the phrase itself will never be any less absurd. There will however, be a big sign outside MY funeral telling people not to say it.

[Thrawn]

@Euthanatos93: I'd bet that a simple "Don't be sorry/Don't worry about it" at the end of the game you were playing is a much better way of getting your point across w/o having people argue over whether apologizing for something that isn't their fault is appropriate. Even though I agree that I'm sorry is an overused statement (thus making it more meaningless when used in proper context), it's already happened, and now "well, the fact that I got luckier than you was unfortunate, I guess" a perfectly fine meaning of "sorry for the luck."

In short, the answer of

Perhaps it is but otoh why on Earth would you say something completely different than that which you mean simply because everyone does so without know why.

I could quite understand if there was a historical context for saying things like this. But there is none other than the fact that people have done so and it has become a sort of accepted lexicon without reason or history. We just do it....and we don't know why.

is that the fact people "doing so" is the thing that *gives* it that context, and contrary to your opinion, it is now an acceptable (albeit slightly grating to a language purist, in the same way many now acceptable phrases are) use of the phrase.


Also, that would be an excellent sign: "Don't be sorry (Unless you actually killed me)

[Mabuse]

Lately I have seen lot this going on in 1v1 multiplayer games:
Other player has good luck, then he/she says "I'm sorry for the luck".

I don't get why you should be (or even say you are) sorry for your good luck/other player bad luck.

btw, i dont think the main point is for excuse, the main point is that you make a statement that you are actually REALISING that you have good luck. (bacasue many n...ewbs actually dont even realize their good luck)

so "sorry for the luck" means, "hey, i guess i have some good luck :D:D:D"
but its possibly a bit more polite not to show your opponent that you are having a good time pwning him with tons of luck

(thats as far you can beat someone just by good luck)

[Araja]

I always try to comment on outstanding luck, but this may be personal preferance. To me at least, someone who brushes off their own good luck or my bad luck is incredibly annoying to play against.

"That attack is only going well because both of your thunderers hit my 70% fencer :/"
"Don't blame luck"

Why on earth not? It's a very powerful, make or break factor in the game. Now I don't mind being beaten because of my own lack of skill, or because my opponent is a better strategist. Sometimes they know the map better than I do or I just chose a really bad set of recruits. But...When I attempt to mage-blast an injured wose during the daytime, I will likely be annoyed should the the mage miss 3/3 and get crushed the next turn. That interferes with my plans somewhat, but not to the point of anger.

What pushes me over the edge is when people fail to see their unit is only alive through sheer dumb luck, and inform me all good players should have a backup plan. Well, where was your perfect thought process when you left the half-dead wose near my mage under the sun then?
Irony hurts