Heir to the Throne rant/idea suggestion

[Joram]

About the Gryphon Mountain thing: As far as I know, the only cases of "intelligent" gryphons are a user made campaign about gryphons, and the one gryphon in the Scepter of Fire campaign.

Gryphons are not listed on the official website as one of the races of Wesnoth, and the unit descriptions for Gryphon riders do not mention anything about being intelligent.

I'm inclined to think that the Gryphon in the Scepter of Fire was a unique one, and that gryphons are not on the whole intelligent.

Although if it is decided that they are intelligent, then change the storyline.

[Orcish Shyde]

I noticed there was code where the gryphons seemed to appreciate it if you didn't kill any of them and didn't let them all die - enough for the implication, both in dialogue and in code, that you would be rewarded for your mercy. I was thinking of having Konrad seriously consider this course of action in the mission, then adding code so it does pay off - "If I steal the eggs I can hatch my own gryphons, but these beasts are intelligent - surely they will appreciate it if I spare them" then having 8-10 riderless Gryphons added to your recall list once you get the Sceptre of Fire.

[TheGreatRings]

Perhaps Delfador (who clearly is willing to use questionable tactics to remove Ashevier, as seen in his deception with Konrad) urges the prince to kill the griffons and take the eggs, believing that the ends justify the means. Kalenz, meanwhile, urges Konrad to spare the Griffons and fight the queen's men instead (I hate to use steriotypes, but it fits with the idea of elves been more "naturalistic" and peaceful). The player, as Konrad, must then choose which course of action to follow, with each having pros and cons. Maybe later, after Konrad and Li'sar meet, Li'sar could respond to Konrad's insistence that he will kill the queen by pointing out that on the count of slavery, at least, he is no better (it fits with Ashevier being her mother, and Li'sar having followed loyaly all these years, that she would make some effort to defend her mother. Note that she does give Ashevier a chance to surrender before the final battle. So I feel this is probably in keeping with Li'sar's established character and actions).

Of course, things like this deal with morality in a much darker and perhaps more complex way than this campaign intended, though perhaps more realistically, by showing that "heros" sometimes do terrible things in war as well. Might not be suitable for the Heir to the Throne campaign, even in a rewrite.

[mcv]

The intent of the narrative at the beginning speaking as if Konrad is the true heir is to facilitate a plot twist later in the campaign. It is not meant to suggest the narrative is generally untrue or unreliable or a piece of propaganda. I think the plot twist is very interesting and adds intrigue to the storyline, a lot more so than simply revealing everything up-front.

I agree. I love the twist, and it suggests a lot more depth and intrigue than most of the story really has. I definitely don't want everything revealed up front, although a bit more foreshadowing and a bit more consequences might be nice. (When you defeat the horse clans, for example, they get confused about who they're serving. Perhaps replacing Delfador's "shut up and fight" with a "it's complicated, but I'll explain it soon".)

Some early hints that Delfador is more interested in having a good king than a rightful one, and the elves are more interested in getting rid of the orcs than restoring any rightful heir, might help. The story already points out that Li'sar (while stupid and suicidally stubborn) is honest and not terribly fond of her mother's methods, which is good. But every revelation and plot twist seems to stand on its own and, in later scenarios, seems like it's a bit ignored by the characters. It feels to me like the story should follow through more on every development in the plot, although I admit I'm at a loss on how exactly to do that. I'm not a writer, I'm afraid.

I feel that most players are reasonable enough to understand this and won't get to the Elvish Council and then throw their arms up and say "so the entire narrative we have been told is all a LIE!!!!"

I definitely didn't have that feeling. In fact, I'd already figured out something like that, and was afraid that the story wouldn't have this twist. I was pleasantly surprised when it did. But much of the rest of the story sounds really simplistic and shallow, which made me doubt the hints that suggested that this twist coming, and think that they were just plot holes in a simpler "just accept that Konrad is rightful heir" story. I'm glad I was wrong, but I think changing the feel of the story, especially much of the early dialogue, would give the reader more faith in the complexities of the story. (I hope that sentence makes sense.)

I'm also happy with some re-work of the dialog of the campaign: I think it'd be nice to make Konrad and Li'sar's characters a little stronger, and I'm happy with demonstrating more of Asheviere's tyranny if people think that is necessary. Really though, the campaign was designed to have a very simple good vs evil storyline, was not meant to be taken too seriously, and was meant to be of a reading level appropriate for children.

Why for children? Wesnoth doesn't strike me as a children's game. It tactical and trategic complexities that puts it in a similar league as Panzer General. Certainly not a game for little kids, IMO. I think more mature dialogue would help the game a lot.

I understand that the focus is on gameplay, and that this is not a novel,

For a strategy game, there's actually quite a lot of focus on story. Sure, gameplay is more important, but with this much dialogue, you can't say there's no focus on story. If you want less emphasis on story, just give each scenario a single intro text and drop all the chatter. If you do this much story, it's worth doing it right.

Take the example of the Vader revelation in Star Wars. Luke finds out Vader is his father 2/3s of the way through the trilogy. This gives an entire film to deal with the characters adapting to this new knowledge, and the shift in priorities from "kill Vader" to "redeam Vader." In short, while I am hesitant to suggest such a drastic change, it might be better to have Li'sar revealed as the true Heir a few scenarios earlier, and throw in a couple lines later to show Li'sar taking on more authority and Konrad adjusting to the idea of sharing power. I'm particularly interested in what the reactions of Konrad's army would be: do they ever find out that Konrad's not the real Heir? That they've been risking their lives for a lie? How do they feel about serving Li'sar as queen? (alternatively, this could function as an entirely sepperate campaign.)

I agree. I mentioned the horse clans already, but the same is true for the rest of the army. Now the story after the big revelation shouldn't be turned into Return of the Jedi, but a bit more exposition about how these characters that we've been living with for 20+ scenarios are dealing with this news would be nice. It doesn't have to be anything drastic; just some rewritten text here and there.

That's ok, but... it could be so much more.

That's exactly my point: it has a seed of something really great, but it's not quite coming out yet.

Perhaps Delfador (who clearly is willing to use questionable tactics to remove Ashevier, as seen in his deception with Konrad) urges the prince to kill the griffons and take the eggs, believing that the ends justify the means. Kalenz, meanwhile, urges Konrad to spare the Griffons and fight the queen's men instead (I hate to use steriotypes, but it fits with the idea of elves been more "naturalistic" and peaceful).

I love this idea.

[TheGreatRings]

For a strategy game, there's actually quite a lot of focus on story. Sure, gameplay is more important, but with this much dialogue, you can't say there's no focus on story. If you want less emphasis on story, just give each scenario a single intro text and drop all the chatter. If you do this much story, it's worth doing it right.

I agree, I just recognize that the priority is not to write a great piece of literature.

Take the example of the Vader revelation in Star Wars. Luke finds out Vader is his father 2/3s of the way through the trilogy. This gives an entire film to deal with the characters adapting to this new knowledge, and the shift in priorities from "kill Vader" to "redeam Vader." In short, while I am hesitant to suggest such a drastic change, it might be better to have Li'sar revealed as the true Heir a few scenarios earlier, and throw in a couple lines later to show Li'sar taking on more authority and Konrad adjusting to the idea of sharing power. I'm particularly interested in what the reactions of Konrad's army would be: do they ever find out that Konrad's not the real Heir? That they've been risking their lives for a lie? How do they feel about serving Li'sar as queen? (alternatively, this could function as an entirely sepperate campaign.)

I agree. I mentioned the horse clans already, but the same is true for the rest of the army. Now the story after the big revelation shouldn't be turned into Return of the Jedi,[/quote]

Agreed one hundred percent. I was merely using a well-known example to illustrate a point.

but a bit more exposition about how these characters that we've been living with for 20+ scenarios are dealing with this news would be nice. It doesn't have to be anything drastic; just some rewritten text here and there.

I agree. Probably every change suggested in this thread could be accomplished with no more than a sentence or two cut/added.

That's ok, but... it could be so much more.

That's exactly my point: it has a seed of something really great, but it's not quite coming out yet.[/quote]

Perhaps Delfador (who clearly is willing to use questionable tactics to remove Ashevier, as seen in his deception with Konrad) urges the prince to kill the griffons and take the eggs, believing that the ends justify the means. Kalenz, meanwhile, urges Konrad to spare the Griffons and fight the queen's men instead (I hate to use steriotypes, but it fits with the idea of elves been more "naturalistic" and peaceful).

I love this idea.[/quote]

Thank you. I was a bit hesitant about suggesting such heavy changes to the classic Wesnoth campaign, but it sounded like a good idea I guess.

Of course, if the devs rule that griffons are just animals, then the problem is resolved. And that solution would be more in keeping with the simpler morality described earlier. However, if they are intelligent, then either the scenario should be dropped, or changed so that the consequences of essentially enslaving children and murdering the parrents (whatever the military gains) are adressed. I'm not nessissarily against Konrad having the option of going through with it (such methods were regrettably common in our own history), but it should not simply be left hanging.

Furthermore, you get a chance for some character developement and drama. I especially would like to see Kalenz and Li'sar being shown to have greater relevancy in terms of giving the hero advice-you have two experienced military commanders here, alledgedly of considerable skill. Having them give advice that conflicts with Delfador would create an interesting dynamic, showing the disagreements that inevitably occur when commanders debate military strategy in a campaign, and forcing Konrad to take on a political as well as a military leadership role by having to choose who's advice to follow.

Of course, my bias towards Delfador may also be a factor (I just don't like the manipulative old man, regardless of his motivations for his deception). Granted, he's Konrad's protector and advisor (and that relationship is central to the story), but shouldn't one of the steps in a hero's developing maturity be the abillity to question their mentor and choose their own path?

[Joram]

I'm also happy with some re-work of the dialog of the campaign: I think it'd be nice to make Konrad and Li'sar's characters a little stronger, and I'm happy with demonstrating more of Asheviere's tyranny if people think that is necessary. Really though, the campaign was designed to have a very simple good vs evil storyline, was not meant to be taken too seriously, and was meant to be of a reading level appropriate for children.

Why for children? Wesnoth doesn't strike me as a children's game. It tactical and trategic complexities that puts it in a similar league as Panzer General. Certainly not a game for little kids, IMO. I think more mature dialogue would help the game a lot.

I wouldn't put Wesnoth anywhere close to the league of Panzar General. I could have easily played Wesnoth when I was 8, except that it didn't exist at the time. I don't think I could say the same about Panzar.

Of course, I certainly wouldn't have had anywhere near the level of skill that an older person would have; but I was already playing some strategy board games at that age that had some elements in common with Wesnoth. My brother actually started playing Wesnoth when he was 11 or 12 (I don't remember exactly; it was a while ago), and he didn't seem to think of it as at all difficult, and I am confident that he could have played it several years earlier.

Just throwing that out there.


Now, I'm all in favor of giving it mature dialogue and character development. But I would be against most attempts to make it darker, or more "realistic". This is Wesnoth, not medieval Europe. Just because people murdered close relations and enslaved people in Europe doesn't mean that it is understandable, or somehow excused (which is why I'm against allowing Konrad to enslave the Gryphons; just because medieval people did it without everyone recoiling from the act doesn't mean that we need to portray it that way in Wesnoth).

I actually like having a Wesnoth campaign that follows the old "good people vs bad people" theme. As it stands now, HttT is the only campaign that does that (that I am aware of). Every character is either good or bad.

Now, I know that some people find this to be the problem; but there are other campaigns that follow different stories. I certainly wouldn't like all, or even very many of the campaigns to be like HttT. In fact, I think that one is enough. But I'd like to preserve that one. As such, I would like HttT to remain a somewhat innocent story of good vs evil, without too much intrigue and such going on.

But of course, the old Wesnothian doctrine once again asserts itself: If you want something done, do it yourself.

Anyway, my 2 cents have been inserted. Carry on.

[MDG]

Why for children?

Why not? Indeed, why not something that can be enjoyed by people of all ages?

Probably every change suggested in this thread could be accomplished with no more than a sentence or two cut/added.

And yet nothing seems to have changed despite all the noise in this topic... (perhaps posting up actual config files with changed dialogue, as Orcish Shyde tried on the previous page, might result in the possibility of a concrete change... hint, hint... ).

This topic is getting very verbose, with posts being completely dissected time and again and yet little actual attempts at specifying the exact wording of dialogue changes has resulted. Possibly focusing on the changes wanted and less "I agree with you! Wow!" might steer this somewhere constructive...

[AThousandYoung]

A particularly good example was Isabella, the wife of English king Edward II. She and her lover, Roger Mortimer, staged an invasion of England and forced Edward (her own husband) to abdicate in favour of his heir, their son, Edward III. Then she ruled as his regent with Mortimer at her side, and quite probably had her husband killed.

Later, when he was old enough, Edward III took a band of friends and snuck into his mother's castle, killed Mortimer and locked up Isabella. This true story is probably the mother of all evil queen stories. It truly doesn't get much better than that.

It provides some perspective into this situation to note that Edward II was flaming gay and had a habit of illegally taking his barons' land and giving it to his boyfriend, Hugh Despenser, inciting civil war.

[AThousandYoung]

Which is fine, though if that is the case, the whole Griffon Mt scene becomes a bit awkward, since griffons are supposed to be intelligent (or so I've been told). Basically, Konrad commits the same crimes as Ashevier at the Bay of Pearls (besides attempting to kill the monarch who also happens to be a blood relative). Now, you can write a brilliant story around the difficult choices that people make during war, the atrocities they attempt to justify, weather the ends justify the means, etc. But that's a much darker kind of story, and if you're going for a children's tale with simple, black and white morality, its rather awkward, at least to me. Though I suppose it has a certain iriony to it.

Back then maybe people were unaware that Griffons were anything more than animals.

[TheGreatRings]

Now, I'm all in favor of giving it mature dialogue and character development. But I would be against most attempts to make it darker, or more "realistic". This is Wesnoth, not medieval Europe. Just because people murdered close relations and enslaved people in Europe doesn't mean that it is understandable, or somehow excused (which is why I'm against allowing Konrad to enslave the Gryphons; just because medieval people did it without everyone recoiling from the act doesn't mean that we need to portray it that way in Wesnoth).

Which is all well and fine, but I would point out that the current Heir to the Throne campaign revolves entirely around a quest to kill a relative (albeit an evil one). Part of the problem to my mind is that its not a light innocent adventure or a darker drama. Its that it has pretensions of the former with under currents of the latter that are simply left hanging and never dealt with.

I actually like having a Wesnoth campaign that follows the old "good people vs bad people" theme. As it stands now, HttT is the only campaign that does that (that I am aware of). Every character is either good or bad.

I don't know weather that is the case, but that's obviously what its trying to be. And I'm fine with that. Many of my favorite stories fall in that catagory.

Now, I know that some people find this to be the problem; but there are other campaigns that follow different stories. I certainly wouldn't like all, or even very many of the campaigns to be like HttT. In fact, I think that one is enough. But I'd like to preserve that one. As such, I would like HttT to remain a somewhat innocent story of good vs evil, without too much intrigue and such going on.

I agree. I have made a point of being cautious about changing the fundimental nature of the characters and story. And unlike some people (apparently), I don't buy the idea that for a story to be mature or realistic, that it can't have clear cut heros and villains.

But of course, the old Wesnothian doctrine once again asserts itself: If you want something done, do it yourself.

Anyway, my 2 cents have been inserted. Carry on.

Their are two reasons why I haven't done so. First, I have spent more time than I really have to waste on this topic already. In fact, I should be typing an essay instead of this. I do not have time to play through Heir to the Throne in its entirety and then post dialog changes.

Second, I don't think I'm the one to do it. Frankly, I'm essentially a noob here, and this is the main Wesnoth campaign. In short, I can offer my suggestions, but I don't expect any changes I suggest to actually be implemented.

That said, I can see that people might take offense to complaints without any effort to suggest an alternative on my part, so if at any point in the next few weeks I have the free time, I'll try to post some more specific suggestions.

[Orcish Shyde]

Second official release of Iteration #1 of Orcish Shyde's Rewrite of HTTT is here. This one is rewritten up to Elven Council, and I decided to have Parandra spill the beans about Konrad's real identity there, thereby forcing Delfador to accept Li'sar as the real queen. This leaves the issue of where to put the exposition of the details, unless I can write a REALLY good handwave of Delfador being reluctant to tell Konrad all the details even when the cat is out of the bag.

[Jyuukenbu]

Second official release of Iteration #1 of Orcish Shyde's Rewrite of HTTT is here. This one is rewritten up to Elven Council, and I decided to have Parandra spill the beans about Konrad's real identity there, thereby forcing Delfador to accept Li'sar as the real queen. This leaves the issue of where to put the exposition of the details, unless I can write a REALLY good handwave of Delfador being reluctant to tell Konrad all the details even when the cat is out of the bag.

Spoiler:

[Orcish Shyde]

Typical. Fixed in this tarball.

[mcv]

Why for children? Wesnoth doesn't strike me as a children's game. It tactical and trategic complexities that puts it in a similar league as Panzer General. Certainly not a game for little kids, IMO. I think more mature dialogue would help the game a lot.

I wouldn't put Wesnoth anywhere close to the league of Panzar General. I could have easily played Wesnoth when I was 8, except that it didn't exist at the time. I don't think I could say the same about Panzar.

8? Really? Wesnoth seems to me to be a bit too complex for that. There's a lot of subtle strategic notions you need to keep track of (day/night, which damage type against which vulnerability), and in some ways it seems actually more complex or more detailed than Panzer General, which, by the way, is not a true heavy duty wargame either. IMO they both fit the lightweight wargame niche, filling the gap between Civilization and The Operational Art of War. Maybe the specific scenarios in PG are a bit harder, but Wesnoth still reminds me a lot of PG, despite the many obvious differences. (In fact, I'm considering making a PG clone out of the Wesnoth engine.)

And PG is definitely playable by teenagers. Maybe not 8 year old, but I think I was about 14 when I played Squad Leader, and that's quite a bit on the other end of the scale.

I actually like having a Wesnoth campaign that follows the old "good people vs bad people" theme. As it stands now, HttT is the only campaign that does that (that I am aware of). Every character is either good or bad.

Li'sar switches sides. And I think plenty of other campaigns also have a good vs evil theme. With similar nuances.

[Velensk]

There is a diffrence between how complex a game is, and how hard a game is.

Wesnoth is not complex in terms of rules. My nine year old brother had no trouble learning it. He was never a good player, but he never had problems with the rules.

Recently, now that he is twelve I've tried to teach him squad leader (only the origional game, not advanced squad leader). That was a bit to hard for him in terms of rules, however he still had enough of a basic tactical concept to not be a complete blow-over the time I tried it*. However he constantly forgot rules, failed to take advantage of options (such as the ability to form a fireing group), and as such he made a few poor decisions and was unable to make most use of his units

*I did have to point out specificaly how deadly it is to run your infantry through the open, but he generaly had the idea of cover, how to use op fire to control an area, and concentration of firepower.