Please don't use swear words in game text

[turin]

What a nice world would it be if people started to interpret words by their context. So in Wesnoth they would be seen as part of a time and cultures like described. If we are there, let's get a more normal relation to sexuality where we don't try to keep it away from children until they get their own childs because they had no idea what could happen when they do certain things. Nobody told them about it and they tried to learn something their protective parents prevented it... (For a certain definition of protection which I don't share.)

But not everyone here shares your views on sexual morality.

[Dave]

So irrespective of what people think of having profanity in game, is there anyone who actually likes "tree shagger" as a phrase that orcs would use? Or are there really no objections to us just going and removing it?

David

[thespaceinvader]

I don't think anyone's wild about it. And while we're at it, IMO, human-worm isn't much better, and stinky-midget is far worse...

[Iris]

I don't think anyone's wild about it. And while we're at it, IMO, human-worm isn't much better, and stinky-midget is far worse...

Those don't sound as nasty as "tree-shagger". Those fit the orcs better already, IMHO.

[thespaceinvader]

o_O but the orcs aren't nice... They ARE nasty. Well, not nasty per se, but hard-bitten warriors who respect only the strong, and hen those from their race over others. They wouldn't exactly be nice. Stinky-midget in particular just sounds really twee to me.

[Ken_Oh]

I think tree-shagger is quite an appropriate thing for an Orc to say, if you're not taking the issue of profanity into consideration.

[Radament]

It is not the duty of a game or an campaign author to protect children from influences that their parents seem unfit for them. It's the duty of parents, who may have drastically different points of view from Buenos Aires to Bangkok.

So I'm pretty much against the removal of the relatively mild swear word like tree-shagger, not because i like it, but because i think it is wrong to edit/censor anything due to a personal opinion.

Wesnoth is somehow about creatures impaling, cursing, burning, cutting and generally trying to kill each other. This is depicted in a cartoony way, and IMO tree-shagger is a pretty cartoony swear word.

Seems like a touchy subject, i hope my opinions didn't offend anyone.

[Weeksy]

I could probably think of a few better insults, but it isn't bad. It fits the situation well, and seems rather orcish.

[friar tuck]

I really like this discussion about how an orc could swear in a politically correct way

And I absolutely think if some user feels offended by the language (especially when it serves no purpose gameplay-wise), it should be replaced.

But as a father of three small children, to even think for a second my decision of whether or not they should be allowed to play wesnoth would be influenced by the language used seems totally absurd to me.

Please, step back for a minute and contemplate the following two statements:

1) When playing wesnoth, my child is exposed to foul language.

2) When playing wesnoth, my child has to kill other human beings as a game objective.

Or, even shorter:

1) An orc is using foul language to address an elf.

2) An orc is using a sword to kill an elf.

From a child's perspective, wesnoth is about killing other people!

I think before playing wesnoth someone has to possess a very mature understanding of violence and I can't imagine such a person could be harmed by hints at strange sexual practises.

[appleide]

I don't mind most swear words, though I'd avoid them generally. But, to me, Tree-Shagger is a bad insult regardless. (As Dave said before... Its a euphemism).

However, to those that says "No modern swear words but swear words that aren't swear words in our context are fine", I'd tend to disagree. By allowing fictional characters to insult each other based on their race, you're basically saying "it's fine" to young children, who may not yet be able to distinguish context between game and reality.
There's no difference if we use actual swear words or not, in my opinion.

If we avoid insults altogether on the other hand, the game would have less feel for the rest of us.

I don't mind what ever else happens (Either put a PG13+ rating on some campaigns or make them all G), but I'd for remove tree-shagger as an insult.

[bert1]

There's no difference if we use actual swear words or not, in my opinion.

This may well be right, but I'm not sure that adopting a consistent principled position is the issue here. The issue, is (correct me if I'm wrong) just a matter of avoiding offending people where possible. If that means that non-Wesnothian swear words receive complaints, but Wesnothian inventions do not, then the problem is solved by adopting the latter.

If a non-Wesnothian swear-word (e.g. shagger) brought something to the game that could not be replaced adequately with a Wesnothian swear-word then that would be a good argument for its continued inclusion. But if every swear-word can be replaced by a suitable Wesnothian invention, I see no reason not to do so.

There is certainly humour to be had by putting irreverent modern day real world references in a fantasy setting. But there are several prices to pay: potential silliness, destroying suspension of disbelief about the Wesnoth world, and possibly offending a few people. Unless a major purpose of a campaign is to be comical in this way (and it could come with a warning as has been suggested) then I think the disadvantages probably outweigh any possible humourous benefit.

As for orcish insults (probably no less silly sounding than 'shagger'):

(to Elves)
vegetarians
forest rats
leaf litter
compost
sapsuckers
sapsucklers
sucksappers
nutnibbling arborphiles (for use by an educated orcish shaman, perhaps)

General ones:
Vumshwat
spad
moont
dridder
whelp-bait
dogfood
catfood
ratfood

[earthboy]

@above me
Nice list of swear words, how about to write it in Wesnothian Swear Words next to Wesnothian poems in the wiki

However, to those that says "No modern swear words but swear words that aren't swear words in our context are fine", I'd tend to disagree. By allowing fictional characters to insult each other based on their race, you're basically saying "it's fine" to young children, who may not yet be able to distinguish context between game and reality.
There's no difference if we use actual swear words or not, in my opinion.

But, sometimes young children didn't know is that swear words or not. Elves was "tree shagger" in their mind they figure that the elves were shagging the tree.

note: I opened my dictionary and found nothing about "shag" in my language. So, I didn't really know about it much.

[db0]

If (or when) you have kids, then as far as I'm concerned you can tell them what you like about swear words, at an age and time when you feel it is suitable for them.

I will.

I would like the same consideration, to make that judgment for my children myself, rather than you to decide it for me.

I'm sorry, did I come to your home and force your child to play with swear words or did you come to the forum and propose we remove a silly one?

To my mind, the suggestions for other insults on this thread seem much better in and of themselves, as well as providing a practical way forward that satisfies everyone's requests.

I will agree with that. SpaceInvader's proposals do actually sound very convincing and nasty. However this is a decisions that should be left up to the campaign maintainer.

But not everyone here shares your views on sexual morality.

Which is exactly the point. The moral values around here vary wildly. You either have to cater to the lowest common denominator or allow creative freedom.

So irrespective of what people think of having profanity in game, is there anyone who actually likes "tree shagger" as a phrase that orcs would use? Or are there really no objections to us just going and removing it?

I don't mind it.

I really like this discussion about how an orc could swear in a politically correct way

And I absolutely think if some user feels offended by the language (especially when it serves no purpose gameplay-wise), it should be replaced.

Language and dialogue rarely serves any gameplay purpose. It is there for the flavor which is exactly what is sacrificed when you cater to everyone's sensitivities.
I OTOH believe that there should be a really serious reason before changing someone else's ideas. Getting offended about it just does not cut it by itself as anyone can get offended by pretty much anything. I can even get offended by you being offended. This is no way to settle this.

However, to those that says "No modern swear words but swear words that aren't swear words in our context are fine", I'd tend to disagree. By allowing fictional characters to insult each other based on their race, you're basically saying "it's fine" to young children, who may not yet be able to distinguish context between game and reality.

I agree with you in general except the later part. By that reasoning we're already saying to children that it's ok to exterminate your enemies in violent melee combat. Obviously this is not what we are saying.

Generally I feel quite strongly against (pre-emptive especially) censoring, as you may have noticed. Trying to avoid offending anyone is just a recipe for disaster. A real-world example is the current situation in Europe.

[earthboy]

the important thing is, we should put age limitation of this game. Which one are permitted to play, something like everyone, teen, or mature. The MS Age of Empires was for mature. ( if we don't want our children to know to those swear words.)

[Sapient]

This thread is drifting off-topic. I will remind everyone to avoid personal attacks, which have no place here, and stick to the original topic.

How do you feel about use of the word "tree-shagger" (and similar words) in official Wesnoth scenarios? If you want to have a discussion based on religion, sexual morality, or video game violence then you better use a different thread in the appropriate forum. If you want personal attacks then don't post at all.