Legend of Wesmere and Delfador's Memoirs for official campai
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Legend of Wesmere and Delfador's Memoirs for official campai
Hi,
IMHO Legend of Wesmere and Delfador's Memoirs do comply perfectly the criteria for an official campaign. They do not use additional race units, show interesting and featureful scenarios and are perfectly playable. They also fit nicely into the main story.
Is there any reason besides that somebody has to to the actual work to upload these campaigns to official VCS that they should not be included into official Wesnoth?
Kind regards
Andreas.
IMHO Legend of Wesmere and Delfador's Memoirs do comply perfectly the criteria for an official campaign. They do not use additional race units, show interesting and featureful scenarios and are perfectly playable. They also fit nicely into the main story.
Is there any reason besides that somebody has to to the actual work to upload these campaigns to official VCS that they should not be included into official Wesnoth?
Kind regards
Andreas.
DM is getting an overhaul right now and intended to go mainline soon after 1.4. For LoW the main issue are missing graphics and it might better be splitted into a few smaller campaigns.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
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Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
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I think DM will benefit from additional scenaria, as intended by its original author,but that should not be a problem: HttT was mainline long before it was complete.
You may also note that a lot of ugly graphics has been changed in the latest LOW release, but again I do not see why this is a blocker-Delfador's image has changed at least twice and Kalenz's 3 times in HttT. I recall myself having complained about one version of Kalenz's portrait in HttT at some point, but HttT was certainely not de-mainlined because Delf's or Kalenz's portrait was ugly.
It is certainely possible to split LOW into 2 campaigns, but I really do not see
why, for me the more scenaria, the more fun, at least as long as the
scenaria fit the story and gameplay. The "too long campaign" clause is
a fairly recent silent (i.e. not stated in any policy) requirement apparently
by devs, but users do not necessarily like that-witness the poll on Mountain Pass and Valley of Statues in HttT, which were IMHO wrongly removed. LOW is not much longer than TROW, so I really do not
understand this. The size is proportional to the time period spanned and
its importance to the Wesnoth history. Two brothers for instance, or Orcish incursion or TSG are a "footnote in Wesnoth history", in comparison to say TROW, EI or HttT(this does not mean they are not interesting though or that this is a reason for not being mainline)
Finally, the decision on LOW should not depend on SoF. LOW was tweaked to support both versions of the SoF story: Both the HttT version and Turin's SoF version: In SoF Haldric II follows the elves'(Crelanu's) advice to shield the sceptre, but maybe does a poor job(he underpaid the dwarves after all)
or maybe he does it at home. In either case by Delfador's times, the sceptre is not properly shielded, and there is a dialog with Delf to that extent in LOW. LOW supports both versions, but cannot reconcile HttT and SoF. Low explains the beginning of SoF, but it also explains almost everything that happens between TROW and HttT. If there is a reason to include it, this is it(in conjunction with gameplay, if one considers it interesting)
In my view LOW fills in the story between the end of TROW and the start of HttT -at least this was the design, among with gameplay issues. It could be improved perhaps,
but that is probably true for every campaign.
I do not undertand some of the requirements on grafics, I subscribe to the view "make it work first, improve it later", the entire FOSS was created this way, in fact everything man-made was created this way.
Mainline campaigns develop bugs from version to version, so ugly grafics(if that also applies to the new version) is a non-issue to me: Better imperfect grafics than no grafics at all.
In any case, although LOW has had very positive feedback in its thread, I personally do not care if it's mainlined or not. Being mainlined will
make a difference only for those users who do not bother downloading add-ons. There probably is a sizeable such user percentage.
More campaigns by default means more fun -after all this is what users are mainly interested in
You may also note that a lot of ugly graphics has been changed in the latest LOW release, but again I do not see why this is a blocker-Delfador's image has changed at least twice and Kalenz's 3 times in HttT. I recall myself having complained about one version of Kalenz's portrait in HttT at some point, but HttT was certainely not de-mainlined because Delf's or Kalenz's portrait was ugly.
It is certainely possible to split LOW into 2 campaigns, but I really do not see
why, for me the more scenaria, the more fun, at least as long as the
scenaria fit the story and gameplay. The "too long campaign" clause is
a fairly recent silent (i.e. not stated in any policy) requirement apparently
by devs, but users do not necessarily like that-witness the poll on Mountain Pass and Valley of Statues in HttT, which were IMHO wrongly removed. LOW is not much longer than TROW, so I really do not
understand this. The size is proportional to the time period spanned and
its importance to the Wesnoth history. Two brothers for instance, or Orcish incursion or TSG are a "footnote in Wesnoth history", in comparison to say TROW, EI or HttT(this does not mean they are not interesting though or that this is a reason for not being mainline)
Finally, the decision on LOW should not depend on SoF. LOW was tweaked to support both versions of the SoF story: Both the HttT version and Turin's SoF version: In SoF Haldric II follows the elves'(Crelanu's) advice to shield the sceptre, but maybe does a poor job(he underpaid the dwarves after all)
or maybe he does it at home. In either case by Delfador's times, the sceptre is not properly shielded, and there is a dialog with Delf to that extent in LOW. LOW supports both versions, but cannot reconcile HttT and SoF. Low explains the beginning of SoF, but it also explains almost everything that happens between TROW and HttT. If there is a reason to include it, this is it(in conjunction with gameplay, if one considers it interesting)
In my view LOW fills in the story between the end of TROW and the start of HttT -at least this was the design, among with gameplay issues. It could be improved perhaps,
but that is probably true for every campaign.
I do not undertand some of the requirements on grafics, I subscribe to the view "make it work first, improve it later", the entire FOSS was created this way, in fact everything man-made was created this way.
Mainline campaigns develop bugs from version to version, so ugly grafics(if that also applies to the new version) is a non-issue to me: Better imperfect grafics than no grafics at all.
In any case, although LOW has had very positive feedback in its thread, I personally do not care if it's mainlined or not. Being mainlined will
make a difference only for those users who do not bother downloading add-ons. There probably is a sizeable such user percentage.
More campaigns by default means more fun -after all this is what users are mainly interested in
If you want to know more about the roadblocks for LoW getting mainlined best ask zookeeper who's the lead of the opposing camp. It came up quite often when discussing which campaigns to put into mainline but at least at that time WML and graphics lacked too much. If you work with the devs, getting it into 1.5 is quite likely possible.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
Ok, will do. There is probably a broken link here:I cannot remove roadblocks if I do not even know what these roadblocks are
- I have never been contacted on such an issue; if there is a list of things to fix, I am completely unaware of it. On the other hand, if the
whole story is unacceptable, there should be no problem just saying so and
telling users to download it from the add-ons, if they really want to try it out.
In any case, I see no reason for secrecy. In the long run, it saves time both for devs and users
- I have never been contacted on such an issue; if there is a list of things to fix, I am completely unaware of it. On the other hand, if the
whole story is unacceptable, there should be no problem just saying so and
telling users to download it from the add-ons, if they really want to try it out.
In any case, I see no reason for secrecy. In the long run, it saves time both for devs and users
There is no secrecy. If you want to become involved and get your campaign mainline it is up to you to approach the developers to find out if there is anything stopping your campaign from being mainlined. The easiest would be to join #wesnoth-dev on freenode and just ask..santi wrote:In any case, I see no reason for secrecy. In the long run, it saves time both for devs and users
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Soliton, are you sure?
That does not seem to be the stated policy:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16233
...
So in general: don't ask us for adding it, we will contact you when we think your campaign is ready.
....
HOW TO GET A CAMPAIGN IN
* There will be a forum thread in "Developers Discussions" that is meant for discussing policy changes and nominating campaigns for the addition. In general you will need one core dev (those guys having commit access) who thinks the campaign is worth to add it and someone who is willing to commit it in the end. The thread is more or less only meant to give core devs "hints" about which campaigns *could* be okay.
That does not seem to be the stated policy:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16233
...
So in general: don't ask us for adding it, we will contact you when we think your campaign is ready.
....
HOW TO GET A CAMPAIGN IN
* There will be a forum thread in "Developers Discussions" that is meant for discussing policy changes and nominating campaigns for the addition. In general you will need one core dev (those guys having commit access) who thinks the campaign is worth to add it and someone who is willing to commit it in the end. The thread is more or less only meant to give core devs "hints" about which campaigns *could* be okay.
What does that have to do with secrecy? If you want to wait till some developer happens to find your campaign and like it enough to work out what needs to be done to get it mainlined.. fine. There is no reason to complain about not getting involved or something then though.santi wrote:Soliton, are you sure?
That does not seem to be the stated policy:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=16233
...
So in general: don't ask us for adding it, we will contact you when we think your campaign is ready.
....
HOW TO GET A CAMPAIGN IN
* There will be a forum thread in "Developers Discussions" that is meant for discussing policy changes and nominating campaigns for the addition. In general you will need one core dev (those guys having commit access) who thinks the campaign is worth to add it and someone who is willing to commit it in the end. The thread is more or less only meant to give core devs "hints" about which campaigns *could* be okay.
"If gameplay requires it, they can be made to live on Venus." -- scott
Uh, not really... if SoF is mainline then something similar to the storyline of LoW is implied to be mainline, but that in no way implies that the details of LoW's story are desirable for mainline or that the campaign itself should be mainline.joshudson wrote:If SoF is mainline then the storyline in LoW almost needs to be canonical.
After all, I'm the one who wrote SoF, and I I haven't even played LoW... I have no idea whether it would be a good addition, though I've heard it is an epic-length campaign, which I disapprove of.
For I am Turin Turambar - Master of Doom, by doom mastered. On permanent Wesbreak. Will not respond to private messages. Sorry!
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
And I hate stupid people.
The World of Orbivm
Solition,
first I am not complaining: The users ask why it is not mainline yet and I tell them to ask somewhere else, not on the campaign thread, as I cannot answer
second, Toragan clearly says " we have discussed this and some see roadblocks"-it's not that devs are unaware. Toragan seems to say if these roadblocks are cleared, there may be no fundamental objection. Turin seems to see a fundamental problem(epic).
Third, the policy is clear "don't bother asking us why it is not included-we will contact you if we think so". So we will not tell you what's wrong with it unless you ask, but you are not allowed to ask. In a sense this is what this thread is doing, again, not because I want explanations, but because the users want explanations.
Turin's position is clear: He does not like epic campaigns. However, LOW is no more epic than TROW or HttT, so this cannot be a criterion, else HttT and TROW would also be removed. He then does the consistent thing and does not play it. However, many users like epics, so they should have the choice of playing them. They already can, and the question is whether this should be made easier perhaps by mainlininf\g.
first I am not complaining: The users ask why it is not mainline yet and I tell them to ask somewhere else, not on the campaign thread, as I cannot answer
second, Toragan clearly says " we have discussed this and some see roadblocks"-it's not that devs are unaware. Toragan seems to say if these roadblocks are cleared, there may be no fundamental objection. Turin seems to see a fundamental problem(epic).
Third, the policy is clear "don't bother asking us why it is not included-we will contact you if we think so". So we will not tell you what's wrong with it unless you ask, but you are not allowed to ask. In a sense this is what this thread is doing, again, not because I want explanations, but because the users want explanations.
Turin's position is clear: He does not like epic campaigns. However, LOW is no more epic than TROW or HttT, so this cannot be a criterion, else HttT and TROW would also be removed. He then does the consistent thing and does not play it. However, many users like epics, so they should have the choice of playing them. They already can, and the question is whether this should be made easier perhaps by mainlininf\g.
Situation is: esr considered makeing LoW fit for mainline but too many problems were seen to do it. Usage of 1.3 WML lacking, graphics, length and so on. If it goes into mainline in a polished form some will complain about the length for sure. Personally I don't see this as a huge problem since the intro screen already tells you how long it is for mainline campaigns. If you don't like long campaigns, choose something else.
As said: your best bet if you want it to get mainline is to join #wesnoth-dev on freenode IRC and ask for detailed comments there. I'm not so deeply involved with development currently and can't tell you the details.
As said: your best bet if you want it to get mainline is to join #wesnoth-dev on freenode IRC and ask for detailed comments there. I'm not so deeply involved with development currently and can't tell you the details.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
Hi,
IMHO the length of the campaign is OK especially because the single scenarios are not overlongish and it is worth trying just for fun. Perhaps you like it and have some hints for enhancements - may be in connection to SoF.
Thinking about it it might need some enhancement in the end because I felt the end came a little bit abrupt. The story in the end did not really increased to a highest point.
As a technical hint I would try to seek for images that are duplicates in original Wesnoth and LoW. I had the feeling that several images of Wesnoth mainline were copied to LoW (but did not checked out the latest version). If going mainline would be the goal (which I would prefer) cleaning up this would increase acceptance. The main reason why I would prefer LoW in mainline is that I as a user expect mainline campaigns to be of higher quality. So kind of a preselection is done and new users will play this first. In this regard I see LoW completely apropriate.
Kind regards
Andreas.
IMHO the length of the campaign is OK especially because the single scenarios are not overlongish and it is worth trying just for fun. Perhaps you like it and have some hints for enhancements - may be in connection to SoF.
Thinking about it it might need some enhancement in the end because I felt the end came a little bit abrupt. The story in the end did not really increased to a highest point.
As a technical hint I would try to seek for images that are duplicates in original Wesnoth and LoW. I had the feeling that several images of Wesnoth mainline were copied to LoW (but did not checked out the latest version). If going mainline would be the goal (which I would prefer) cleaning up this would increase acceptance. The main reason why I would prefer LoW in mainline is that I as a user expect mainline campaigns to be of higher quality. So kind of a preselection is done and new users will play this first. In this regard I see LoW completely apropriate.
Kind regards
Andreas.
Ok, I will contact esr. I am not too keen at asking for comments because:
-user comments are hugely positive in the campaign thread
-there is no point wasting anybody's time. As Toragan said, what if its long, as long as it says so? Nobody's forcing anyone to play any campaign.
-one cannot please everybody
-makes little sense to ask for input that will be irrelevant in the final decision. I do not understand why, if anyone objects, the comments cannot be discussed openly in this thread
. I am not easy to take offence.
-this is no favor I am asking. Its what users are asking me
-I've never used IRC before
-user comments are hugely positive in the campaign thread
-there is no point wasting anybody's time. As Toragan said, what if its long, as long as it says so? Nobody's forcing anyone to play any campaign.
-one cannot please everybody
-makes little sense to ask for input that will be irrelevant in the final decision. I do not understand why, if anyone objects, the comments cannot be discussed openly in this thread
. I am not easy to take offence.
-this is no favor I am asking. Its what users are asking me
-I've never used IRC before
Everything is open usually, there's irclog.wesnoth.org where you can read just about every discussion and the dev mailing list is also publically archived. It's just that the major decisions are NOT made involving the forum which has simply too many users throwing in distracting comments.
WesCamp-i18n - Translations for User Campaigns:
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!
http://www.wesnoth.org/wiki/WesCamp
Translators for all languages required: contact me. No geek skills required!