Campains and 80% of the gold

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Dacyn
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Post by Dacyn »

The solution is simple: allow enemy gold to be seen at the start of the scenario. Maybe there could even be a tooltip for the enemy leader showing how much gold he has and what units he can recrult...
Soliton
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Post by Soliton »

Dacyn wrote:The solution is simple: allow enemy gold to be seen at the start of the scenario. Maybe there could even be a tooltip for the enemy leader showing how much gold he has and what units he can recrult...
I like that idea.
Maybe it would also be acceptable to always show the AI enemies gold in the status table. It certainly would be the simplest way to implement this I'd imagine.
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Post by DaviddesJ »

Soliton wrote:Maybe it would also be acceptable to always show the AI enemies gold in the status table. It certainly would be the simplest way to implement this I'd imagine.
If you're going to show the gold at start, then it seems pretty logical to show it always, since in principle one can just keep track of it (you can see what income the AI has and what units it's supporting, so you could work out how much it has over time).

I'd still rather not have the penalty for "over-recruiting", but I would agree it's a lot less annoying if you know more about what you're up against. This still doesn't help with scenarios with "surprise" events in the middle (e.g., several units show up to help you).
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

This, the fact that you don't know how much to recruit/recall until -after- you've done a scenario once in a campaign, is actually my biggest current issue with the whole game. I think you guys should take a look at my idea here:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10781

Too bad it's been locked, even though the problem hasn't even nearly been resolved. I've been able to make the human player not side 1 for the first scenario, I haven't been able to do it in any after that.

For anyone who wants to try and help out, I brought the issue up in the WML Workshop (but no one but toms has touched it).
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Post by DaviddesJ »

I don't think making the human be Player 2 is really much of a solution. And often you wouldn't want that. The suggestion of just making AI gold be public (at least as a campaign or scenario option) seems much better.
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Oh, I totally agree that enemy player gold should be made known to the user. I have to admit that is -the- solution to the problem, but it's not one that's very intuitive. I was actually just about to bring this up in the Ideas forum myself (perhaps have a graphical display of AI gold that easy to compare with your own, rather than straight up numbers), but I'll save it now that it's already being talked about.

The idea of having the human play the highest value side lets the player react to AI recruits/recalls and lets the player intuit the game. While it might not be -the- solution, it is one that lets players get a feel for how many forces the AI sides have.
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zookeeper
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Post by zookeeper »

Another good solution would be to alter the typical scenario mechanics so that the recruiting is more constant, instead of 90% of it happening during the first three turns. Start with less gold, recruit less at the very beginning, get more gold from villages during the scenario and recruit at a more steady pace.
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Post by Soliton »

DaviddesJ wrote:
Soliton wrote:Maybe it would also be acceptable to always show the AI enemies gold in the status table. It certainly would be the simplest way to implement this I'd imagine.
If you're going to show the gold at start, then it seems pretty logical to show it always, since in principle one can just keep track of it (you can see what income the AI has and what units it's supporting, so you could work out how much it has over time).
Obviously we're talking about scenarios with fog/shroud, otherwise it already works that way.
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Dacyn
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Post by Dacyn »

Soliton wrote:Maybe it would also be acceptable to always show the AI enemies gold in the status table. It certainly would be the simplest way to implement this I'd imagine.
That's what I was thinking of...
Soliton wrote:Obviously we're talking about scenarios with fog/shroud, otherwise it already works that way.
No it doesn't (not in 1.1.1 at least, I don't have 1.1.2)
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turin
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Post by turin »

IIRC, it shows enemy gold in MP, but not in campaigns. Which makes no sense.
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Post by Sly »

Ken Oh wrote:The idea of having the human play the highest value side lets the player react to AI recruits/recalls and lets the player intuit the game. While it might not be -the- solution, it is one that lets players get a feel for how many forces the AI sides have.
I think it would be better if in the scenario when you can see all the map, the first enemies were already recruited if it make sense in the scenario : they were here before you ! If not it's part of the strategy : you may know nothing of your enemy because he just appeared, so overecruiting or not is a gamble :wink:

It's the same in real war
Dacyn
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Post by Dacyn »

WINR
turin wrote:IIRC, it shows enemy gold in MP, but not in campaigns. Which makes no sense.
actually, it doesn't in MP either, which makes even less sense since in MP you already know the AI gold since you were the one who set it (unless you're playing a network game)
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Ken_Oh
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Post by Ken_Oh »

Sly wrote:
Ken Oh wrote:The idea of having the human play the highest value side lets the player react to AI recruits/recalls and lets the player intuit the game. While it might not be -the- solution, it is one that lets players get a feel for how many forces the AI sides have.
I think it would be better if in the scenario when you can see all the map, the first enemies were already recruited if it make sense in the scenario : they were here before you ! If not it's part of the strategy : you may know nothing of your enemy because he just appeared, so overecruiting or not is a gamble :wink:

It's the same in real war
Hmmm, since I haven't been able to get the player side != 1 thing to work, I think I'll just do that.
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Post by Soliton »

Dacyn wrote:
Soliton wrote:Obviously we're talking about scenarios with fog/shroud, otherwise it already works that way.
No it doesn't (not in 1.1.1 at least, I don't have 1.1.2)
Well, it does here in the last scenario of HttT in version 1.1.2+svn. Basing feature requests on old versions is rather silly.
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unsung
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Post by unsung »

Flametrooper wrote:Recruit a few sacrificial lvl1 units, keep the leader on the castle, and then watch what sort of power the AI has, and then recruit/recall a second wave according to that.
DaviddesJ wrote: This certainly isn't a serious strategy to achieve a good result for the scenario! The penalty for winning several turns later is considerably greater than the cost of just recruiting more units than you need.
Actually, it is. I do that all the time.

Also, I think it is quite possible to know what you will need for a good scenario, just look at the princess of wesnoth (or whatever it was called) level in httt, or the valley of death, and if you don't know, simply assume a mixed force would be best.
And theres the introductopry dialogoue sin scenarios like the dwarven doors level (not having the internet to download new versions o wesnoth means I haven't played in a while, I can't remember names) -you can readily tell you need to keep moving for the end in this level.
Oh no look out its a ray gun.
You should move to avoid the rays
the rays are coming out of the gun
if you are hit by the rays
you will be shot by the rays
the rays are fast so you should be fast to
can you win against the fast rays from the gun?
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