Balancing races for multiplayer

[benj]

This ia true that some orcish units are weak against horsemen, but not all of them, and this is a matter of situation. Sure, horsemen will kick out trolls on grasslands, but against archers, wolf riders and grunts, this would be trickier. The problem with AI is that it doesn't know how to really use races abilities.

I think wesnoth is very well balanced because every units has a nemesis that perfectly match its weakness.

FYI, I begun to write a small page on how to specifically play Orcs : http://wesnoth.slack.it/?PlayingOrcs Of course this is just an unfinished point of view, people are welcome to add comments there.

[torangan]

2. Horseman may get hurt quite a bit when hit but if you weaken your enemy first using bowmen, you've got a good chance to kill on first blow.

Did other player use similar tactics against your horsemen?

I didn't leave him the chance to do so much and lost only very few units that way. Playing dwarves against loyalists I didn't even find really usefull units for this tactic, they are too slow to reach horsemen effectively.

Did other player take use of ZoC? Did he/she use ZoC to prevent your escape?

Given a charge of a larger group of fast units, it's not that hard to break the ZoC from your enemy. One surely has to take it into consideration when planning the attack but it's possible to save a large percentage of your units.

Did other player use similar tactics against your units in villages?

When I gave him the chance, yes. This happened only in the first rounds, later on I could drive him back far enough that my wounded units were in villages out of reach.

I disagree.

Yeah, I exaggerated a bit. But unless the terrain is very unfortunate, the players start very near to each other and/or there are very few villages, you'll have a major problem.

I have lost to people who know less about tactics than I where I have won people who know more about tactics than I.

Sure, there's always the element of luck and surprise.

I think they are still very expensive

The price is quite well, the other races just need something to throw against them.

I have lost to Orcs with Elves due incorrect tactics. It is matter of terrain, tactic vs tactic and random engine ("luck"). We mostly play with FoW (so there is surprise element).

We played using shroud and FoW to get maximum fun. This makes developing tactics quite a bit harder since you don't know what your enemy is doing until you meet.

Did the other player use similar tactics against your units in daylight?

He tried but horseman are very fast to get away and bowmen can defend well enough to be used for ZoC blocking.

[torangan]

This ia true that some orcish units are weak against horsemen, but not all of them, and this is a matter of situation. Sure, horsemen will kick out trolls on grasslands, but against archers, wolf riders and grunts, this would be trickier. The problem with AI is that it doesn't know how to really use races abilities.

Attack archers at daylight and with a little luck they die on first hit, wolf riders may cause a little damage first but they are dead fast enough. Against grunts I prefer a bowman to weaken them first or at least two horsemen for the attack.

I think wesnoth is very well balanced because every units has a nemesis that perfectly match its weakness.

I couldn't find that in the least. I haven't played that many matches yet but I can't even think of usefull tactics for some combinations. Especially dwarfes are difficult since you don't reach villages fast enough. Gryphons are much too expensive and tend to come out intelligent for me.

[turin]

it is NOT that the loyalists are unbalanced, or really that the orcs are unbalanced- it is you are more used to playing loyalist than playing orcs.
Knalgan alliance is definitely unbalanced. they have very few units, and only two third level units, as opposed to elves having about 10. i know this doesn't make as big a difference in multiplayer, but it really should be worked on.

[telly]

Its a shame multiplayer replays are still broke.

Anyway I've won in all race matchups in multiplayer. Some are much much tougher than others but its still possible. The loyalist unit that does me in is heavy infantry. If an opponent does buy loads of horsemen I expect to win just by weight of numbers. Saying you'll do hit and run attacks is all very well but most good players aren't going to spread their units all over the map, they'll concentrate them in one place and just surround and crush any smaller forces that engage them.

[torangan]

it is NOT that the loyalists are unbalanced, or really that the orcs are unbalanced- it is you are more used to playing loyalist than playing orcs.
Knalgan alliance is definitely unbalanced. they have very few units, and only two third level units, as opposed to elves having about 10. i know this doesn't make as big a difference in multiplayer, but it really should be worked on.

I was playing loyalists the first time. I simply build quite every time of unit at least once, watched the results of the first fights and afterwards concentrated on building archers and horseman.
I agree that the dwarves are too weak, they need at the very least an afforadable scout.

[torangan]

Its a shame multiplayer replays are still broke.

Anyway I've won in all race matchups in multiplayer. Some are much much tougher than others but its still possible. The loyalist unit that does me in is heavy infantry. If an opponent does buy loads of horsemen I expect to win just by weight of numbers. Saying you'll do hit and run attacks is all very well but most good players aren't going to spread their units all over the map, they'll concentrate them in one place and just surround and crush any smaller forces that engage them.

Depending on your opponents skills compared to yours, you can surely always win.
Certainly you don't spread your units all over the map but it's also important to get enough villages. Units like horseman that are fast and strong can easily conquer lots of villages and then you must split your forces or run out of gold.
If your opponent attacks a large force with a small one I'd suggest to teach him about tactics unless he's got day/night advantage on his side or no other chance. The same goes for buying only one kind of unit but in case of the alliance horseman and archers make a devastating combination although heavy infantry is also quite nice albeit slow.

PS: The forum session timeout is too fast. Writing a larger messages with distractions in between can trigger it.

[miyo]

I agree that the dwarves are too weak, they need at the very least an afforadable scout.

I think dwarves scout hills/mountains quite effectively.

- Miyo

[Dave]

Against grunts I prefer a bowman to weaken them first or at least two horsemen for the attack.

Two horsemen vs a grunt is 46 gold worth of units vs 12. I'd certainly hope that you can beat him! Even a bowman and a horseman is 38 gold worth, and is alot harder to get the battle fought on your terms, since the bowman is no faster than the grunt.

---

I do think that the Knalgan Alliance is currently not a strong side in most situations. I think all the other sides have a fair chance of beating one another in most situations.

Undead are certainly fairly strong against Rebels (the side named as potentially the most powerful).

Undead do struggle against Loyalist's Heavy Infantry, and in a smallish and/or mostly flat map, they will be in real trouble. However, in other kind of maps, the speed of the undead will have a good chance of out-maneuvering HIs. Ghosts swarming down to attack HIs with their cold touch at night are probably their best answer. (We need to make Dark Adepts more powerful imo to also make them competitive).

Any fast units Loyalists have will really struggle against undead. Horsemen and Spearmen, normally two staples of Loyalist armies, will be all but useless. Cavalry will have to be used, but will be badly out-maneuvered on all but perfectly flat terrain.

I think Northerners also have a good chance against Loyalists and Rebels. I have posted that I think Grunts need to be made more powerful, and once this is done, I think Northerners will be a full-powered force. "Orcish Irregulars" (fast orcs with spears) could help somewhat too.

IMO, Wolf Riders are one of the best and most under-estimated units in the game. They can move fast on rough terrain, but best of all, they are the only scouting unit that has 60% defense on villages -- this is invaluable.

I wouldn't use trolls against Loyalists -- they'll get beaten up by either HIs or Horsemen, but a good mix of grunts, wolf riders, and assassins should work well.

David

[telly]

To defend villages properly, you need lots of units which get high def% on villages. Horsemen can capture villages early because of their high move but then you'd just have to give them up as they can't really defend anything especially when outnumbered. The value you got out of capturing each village early is maybe 2-3 gold but to counter that your horsemen cost 11 more gold each than an orc warrior.

[torangan]

Two horsemen vs a grunt is 46 gold worth of units vs 12. I'd certainly hope that you can beat him! Even a bowman and a horseman is 38 gold worth, and is alot harder to get the battle fought on your terms, since the bowman is no faster than the grunt.

Don't forget an important point in your calculations - I don't intend to loose any of my units this way and they will kill more then just one grunt over a few rounds. Loosing a horseman against a 12 gold unit would be quite sad for sure.
Another point is - horseman are a unit which you can get to level 2 even in multiplayer without too much trouble and then the situation is altogether different again.

[torangan]

I think dwarves scout hills/mountains quite effectively.

So one should play them only in a hills/mountain terrain? Sure, each race has it's preferred terrain but it shouldn't be extremly difficult to play in another one. Just difficult maybe.

[torangan]

To defend villages properly, you need lots of units which get high def% on villages. Horsemen can capture villages early because of their high move but then you'd just have to give them up as they can't really defend anything especially when outnumbered. The value you got out of capturing each village early is maybe 2-3 gold but to counter that your horsemen cost 11 more gold each than an orc warrior.

Why should I leave them there? They tend to hold out against other scouts well enough and this gives me the time to get other units in which may defend the village much better. So far I've found that it makes a huge difference to carry the battle line closer to your enemy, especially when playing with shroud and FoW since this tends to lead to a more cautios behaviour from your opponent.

[turin]

yes, horsemen are good. NO, they don't unbalance the game. just because they are useful units doesn't mean they are the best, they are only good in grass maps, which the loyalist should be better at. there is nothing wrong with loyalists having an advantage in grass maps, i think, just like there is nothing wrong with elves having an advantage in forest maps.

[Kamahawk]

I do think that the Knalgan Alliance is currently not a strong side in most situations. I think all the other sides have a fair chance of beating one another in most situations.

The Alliance has the easyiest troops to level up, wich means they can get several level 2 units in a multiplayer game wich is great advantage. Thugs can swarm undead and realy do some damage. With the dwarrves they can controll the mountains without opposition and theifs are realy powerfull in the forest second only to the elves. With a some changes the Alliance could become a fair match in general for the other races.