Balancing races for multiplayer
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torangan
Balancing races for multiplayer
I did just play two games against a friend and by now we're sure, that the loyalists are much too strong. In one game I did kill the orcs of my opponent without trouble and in the next game I got squished using dwarfs.
The most dangerous unit by far is the horseman which is simply much too strong. I know of no other unit that you can usefully throw against a bunch of horseman. Additionally the loylist bowman is a bit too strong in close combat.
I'd suggest to either reduce the power of the horseman or to give other races at least one unit which may have a special attack against horseman and/or against mounted units in general. Further one could reduce the movement range of horseman cause they're heavily armored troops.
The most dangerous unit by far is the horseman which is simply much too strong. I know of no other unit that you can usefully throw against a bunch of horseman. Additionally the loylist bowman is a bit too strong in close combat.
I'd suggest to either reduce the power of the horseman or to give other races at least one unit which may have a special attack against horseman and/or against mounted units in general. Further one could reduce the movement range of horseman cause they're heavily armored troops.
An addition to dwarves: they need a scout unit. Most of their units are very slow and gryphon riders are too expensive by far for that job. So in multiplayer, you end up with a lot of scattered units that you can't call back fast enough once your enemy throws his attack against you, probably adding in a few scouts that aren't required anymore.
What's extremly strong though is there hero - put it in a village and your opponent has a very though task getting it down. Using orcs I managed by using poison darts to cancel out the healing. Maybe it's melee attack should be reduced a bit in strength.
What's extremly strong though is there hero - put it in a village and your opponent has a very though task getting it down. Using orcs I managed by using poison darts to cancel out the healing. Maybe it's melee attack should be reduced a bit in strength.
Did both of you take advantage of day cycle? (lawful are stronger in daylight and weaker at night while chaotic are stonger at night and weaker in daylight)
Did both of you take advantage of different terrains? (e.g. Elves have superior defense in woods while horseman and cavalry have poor defense in woods)
Did both of you take advantage of unit weaknesses to certain types of damage? (horseman is vulnerable to piercing damage, that would be bows, spears, etc)
How did you take care of healing? Did you retreat damaged units to heal?
What kind of maps did you have?
Did you have lot of villages or just few villages?
- Miyo
Did both of you take advantage of different terrains? (e.g. Elves have superior defense in woods while horseman and cavalry have poor defense in woods)
Did both of you take advantage of unit weaknesses to certain types of damage? (horseman is vulnerable to piercing damage, that would be bows, spears, etc)
How did you take care of healing? Did you retreat damaged units to heal?
What kind of maps did you have?
Did you have lot of villages or just few villages?
- Miyo
mainly, you did not test it versus elves. elves are MUCH more powerful than loyalists- they have horsemen, and their other units are also quite powerful. really, i think it is not that we have to change loyalist, it is we have to change knalgan alliance, northerners and undead (well, maybe not undead).
horsemen are not all that powerful, considering ther enemy does double damage when they attack, so if they don't kill, it is likely they will die. also, they are very weak against pierce attack. the orcish archer should easily take care of horsemen, if you don't let the archer be attacked.
horsemen can provide a big payoff, but ONLY if they hit. they have a small chance of hitting, since they only have two attacks.
basically, it sounds like you know how to use loyalists, but not how to use the people against horsemen. it can be done, it is just not the simplest thing in the world.
horsemen are not all that powerful, considering ther enemy does double damage when they attack, so if they don't kill, it is likely they will die. also, they are very weak against pierce attack. the orcish archer should easily take care of horsemen, if you don't let the archer be attacked.
horsemen can provide a big payoff, but ONLY if they hit. they have a small chance of hitting, since they only have two attacks.
basically, it sounds like you know how to use loyalists, but not how to use the people against horsemen. it can be done, it is just not the simplest thing in the world.
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I think its more important to keep the races different rather than 'balanced'. I'd rather the dwarves didn't have the griffon rider either and the loyalists hadn't got the archer. Having weaknesses can be kind of fun and gives you good ideas as to what your opponent might do.
Anyway horsemen are too expensive if anything I reckon. Never buy them except single player for paladins.
Anyway horsemen are too expensive if anything I reckon. Never buy them except single player for paladins.
I don't like the cries for "balance" in strategy games that seem to pervade them for a slew of reasons. But the one strong reason that I have, I shall speak here.
There has never been a battle in real life where both sides were balanced. Never. So why should that translate to the game world any? If you are playing a "weak" race, use your intelligence and not just brute force. Out-think your opponent and take them by suprise. Split up your forces to make yourself appear weak, and then flank and destroy - or even go after their commander, stealing their villages as you go.
There are a million and one strategies in any given game. Take time to learn and use them, and don't worry so much about balance - think of it instead as yet another challenge, and rise above it.
There has never been a battle in real life where both sides were balanced. Never. So why should that translate to the game world any? If you are playing a "weak" race, use your intelligence and not just brute force. Out-think your opponent and take them by suprise. Split up your forces to make yourself appear weak, and then flank and destroy - or even go after their commander, stealing their villages as you go.
There are a million and one strategies in any given game. Take time to learn and use them, and don't worry so much about balance - think of it instead as yet another challenge, and rise above it.
Know your Allies Well, Know your Enemies Better. -Sun Tzu, The Art of War.
Horsemen are powerful, but only in certain situations. They are also very expensive.
- horsemen are not powerful against undead
- horsemen are not powerful in rough terrain
- horsemen are not powerful in situations where they have a low chance to hit.
Orcs probably have the most trouble against horsemen, but well-used wolf riders should have a good chance against them. If you put your wolf riders in villages, the horsemen will have only 40% chance to hit you. You will get at least 60% chance to hit them on counter-attacks, dealing double damage.
Wait until night, and then attack the horsemen with your wolf riders. Even if they are in villages, you will get 60% chance to hit them.
I am in favor of an 'orcish irregular' unit that has a piercing attack though.
David
- horsemen are not powerful against undead
- horsemen are not powerful in rough terrain
- horsemen are not powerful in situations where they have a low chance to hit.
Orcs probably have the most trouble against horsemen, but well-used wolf riders should have a good chance against them. If you put your wolf riders in villages, the horsemen will have only 40% chance to hit you. You will get at least 60% chance to hit them on counter-attacks, dealing double damage.
Wait until night, and then attack the horsemen with your wolf riders. Even if they are in villages, you will get 60% chance to hit them.
I am in favor of an 'orcish irregular' unit that has a piercing attack though.
I do agree that we shouldn't be obsessed with finding 'the perfect balance' but on the other hand, if there is one unit or faction that is overwhelmingly powerful, such that any other side has little or chance of defeating them when they are in the hands of a skilled player, then I think that is a problem. I am yet to be convinced that is the case here though.Lithorien wrote: I don't like the cries for "balance" in strategy games that seem to pervade them for a slew of reasons. But the one strong reason that I have, I shall speak here.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
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Christophe33
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Horsemen are units with big strength and big weaknesses. If the enemy knows how to play on its weakness (poor defense, low damage at nigth, few attack...), they can get exterminated quickly. Try an horseman against a skeleton warrior at night and see how long it last.
There have been a proposition for a orcish pikemen (and a graphic) which would help well the orcs against horsemen. I don't think the orc side needs much more new unit type to be reasonably balanced with the most developped sides. I don't think we need to search fora perfect balance in all conditions, just to give each side a fighting chance. The choice of the map has a major influence on the results. In a map with a lot of diverse terrain, each side has a somewaht good chance to win. Well, I haven't used much the dwarf which is the more recent side and the one which still need the more work...
Even though I like the bowman I agree that its melee attack might be a bit high considering how good he is with its range weapon.
There have been a proposition for a orcish pikemen (and a graphic) which would help well the orcs against horsemen. I don't think the orc side needs much more new unit type to be reasonably balanced with the most developped sides. I don't think we need to search fora perfect balance in all conditions, just to give each side a fighting chance. The choice of the map has a major influence on the results. In a map with a lot of diverse terrain, each side has a somewaht good chance to win. Well, I haven't used much the dwarf which is the more recent side and the one which still need the more work...
Even though I like the bowman I agree that its melee attack might be a bit high considering how good he is with its range weapon.
Never tell a dwarf that he shortchanged you!
Well, I'll be trying to answer all questions...
0. Of course we did make use of day-night cycle.
1. The map I won playing loyalist against orc was mostly wood.
2. Horseman may get hurt quite a bit when hit but if you weaken your enemy first using bowmen, you've got a good chance to kill on first blow.
3. If a horseman gets hit, it's fast enough to escape back without a chance for most oponents to get back to it. With a little use of ZoM it's easy to outrun even wolfsriders.
4. If there a wolfsriders in a village, I won't be stupid enough to attack with horseman, there are other units better suited to that task.
5. You don't want absolute balance? Sure, it's impossible to reach since it depends strongly on tactic. But I daresay that it's quite impossible to win against a skilled human playing loyalists on any terrain except using loyalists or elves.
6. Out-thinking your opponent is a nice idea, but I tend to have intelligent persons as friends where I may get a slight advantage but the one I play with most is an experienced gamer who knows much more about game tactics then I. Still I had no trouble winning loyalists vs. orcs and orcs vs dwarves.
7. Horseman aren't too expensive in a multiplayer game if there are a few more villages.
8. Fighting against undead - why would I use horseman? Heavy infantry scythes through them much better.
9. Regarding elves - most likely they are too strong with regard to the others as well.
10. About killing horseman at night - don't you think I may call them back at dusk to come again at dawn? Happy catch up using orcish warriors.
I guess there's not really a need to weaken alliance and/or elves, just give the others a few units strong enough to defend against them. With a few healing shamans in the background, the elves are probably even more devastating when played by a human.
And to all of you who answer - please don't if you only play against computer. Playing against a human who learns your tactics and adapts is in not comparable. Play a 1 vs 1 match with random generated maps and different terrains to see what I mean.
0. Of course we did make use of day-night cycle.
1. The map I won playing loyalist against orc was mostly wood.
2. Horseman may get hurt quite a bit when hit but if you weaken your enemy first using bowmen, you've got a good chance to kill on first blow.
3. If a horseman gets hit, it's fast enough to escape back without a chance for most oponents to get back to it. With a little use of ZoM it's easy to outrun even wolfsriders.
4. If there a wolfsriders in a village, I won't be stupid enough to attack with horseman, there are other units better suited to that task.
5. You don't want absolute balance? Sure, it's impossible to reach since it depends strongly on tactic. But I daresay that it's quite impossible to win against a skilled human playing loyalists on any terrain except using loyalists or elves.
6. Out-thinking your opponent is a nice idea, but I tend to have intelligent persons as friends where I may get a slight advantage but the one I play with most is an experienced gamer who knows much more about game tactics then I. Still I had no trouble winning loyalists vs. orcs and orcs vs dwarves.
7. Horseman aren't too expensive in a multiplayer game if there are a few more villages.
8. Fighting against undead - why would I use horseman? Heavy infantry scythes through them much better.
9. Regarding elves - most likely they are too strong with regard to the others as well.
10. About killing horseman at night - don't you think I may call them back at dusk to come again at dawn? Happy catch up using orcish warriors.
I guess there's not really a need to weaken alliance and/or elves, just give the others a few units strong enough to defend against them. With a few healing shamans in the background, the elves are probably even more devastating when played by a human.
And to all of you who answer - please don't if you only play against computer. Playing against a human who learns your tactics and adapts is in not comparable. Play a 1 vs 1 match with random generated maps and different terrains to see what I mean.
That is what have done... since ~August 2003 *grin*torangan wrote:And to all of you who answer - please don't if you only play against computer. Playing against a human who learns your tactics and adapts is in not comparable. Play a 1 vs 1 match with random generated maps and different terrains to see what I mean.
- Miyo
This statement was not directed at anyone specifically. It's just that some of the suggestions made sound like they would be usefull against computer and nothing else. My friend told me that he tried how good the elves fare against loyalists - took him 20 minutes to finish two elves in a woodrich terrain using more or less only horseman. Elves are strong in the woods but villages tend to be in the plains where horseman are awesome dangerous. Attack any level 1 unit with 3 horseman and you won't face problems. No take one or two from behind to the front to prevent the hurt ones from getting hit next round...miyo wrote: That is what have done... since ~August 2003 *grin*
Did other player use similar tactics against your horsemen?torangan wrote:2. Horseman may get hurt quite a bit when hit but if you weaken your enemy first using bowmen, you've got a good chance to kill on first blow.
Did other player take use of ZoC? Did he/she use ZoC to prevent your escape?torangan wrote:3. If a horseman gets hit, it's fast enough to escape back without a chance for most oponents to get back to it. With a little use of ZoM it's easy to outrun even wolfsriders.
Did other player use similar tactics against your units in villages?torangan wrote:4. If there a wolfsriders in a village, I won't be stupid enough to attack with horseman, there are other units better suited to that task.
I disagree.torangan wrote:5. You don't want absolute balance? Sure, it's impossible to reach since it depends strongly on tactic. But I daresay that it's quite impossible to win against a skilled human playing loyalists on any terrain except using loyalists or elves.
I have lost to people who know less about tactics than I where I have won people who know more about tactics than I.torangan wrote:6. Out-thinking your opponent is a nice idea, but I tend to have intelligent persons as friends where I may get a slight advantage but the one I play with most is an experienced gamer who knows much more about game tactics then I. Still I had no trouble winning loyalists vs. orcs and orcs vs dwarves.
I think they are still very expensivetorangan wrote:7. Horseman aren't too expensive in a multiplayer game if there are a few more villages.
I have lost to Orcs with Elves due incorrect tactics. It is matter of terrain, tactic vs tactic and random engine ("luck"). We mostly play with FoW (so there is surprise element).torangan wrote:9. Regarding elves - most likely they are too strong with regard to the others as well.
Did the other player use similar tactics against your units in daylight?torangan wrote:10. About killing horseman at night - don't you think I may call them back at dusk to come again at dawn? Happy catch up using orcish warriors.
Any faction is devastating in hands of master.torangan wrote:the elves are probably even more devastating when played by a human.
- Miyo
AI is not so smart. Try what we do: give AI x2 or even x3 starting gold, or give their alliance x2 or even x3 number of factions (e.g. 2 vs 4 or even 2 vs 6). Or x2 factions with each x2 starting gold =)torangan wrote:My friend told me that he tried how good the elves fare against loyalists - took him 20 minutes to finish two elves in a woodrich terrain using more or less only horseman.
- Miyo