Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Feedback for the mainline campaign Son of the Black Eye.

Moderator: Forum Moderators

cph
Posts: 129
Joined: May 12th, 2007, 4:29 pm
Location: London, UK

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by cph »

(1) Warrior, 1.8.5
(2) 8 if it worked as designed; Howgarth III died, but I didn't lose (contrary to the stated objectives). As he died before I even got to a camp to recruit, that would be hard to prevent.

As it actually is, 5. Without Howgarth I must have been short of income relative to the enemy, as you lose a lot of flagged villages when he dies; but the allies were able to kill Shan Taum on their own and I had more troops to face less troops of Lambech's than in the last level. I finished the level with a couple of L3 casualties (including Inarix) and some lower-level losses but nothing to make a serious dent in my large army.

If Howgarth had lived it would have been easier I guess — perhaps easy enough that if I hadn't flagged villages and let the allies do the work, they would have done pretty well without me I guess.

(3) Clear.
(4) Very good.
(5) Keeping Howgarth alive would have been challenging, or just a matter of luck. Apart from that, it was an easier version of the previous scenario; even leaderless, Howgarth's units and one of the orc allies defeated one of the enemies.

(6) 7. It's a better version of The Human Army. The dialogue and story is excellent. The allies were a bit weaker relative to the enemy so I got to do more actual fighting, while the enemy had less insane amounts of reinforcements so I didn't have to rush. The extra terrain on the east side of the level made it a more interesting map.

The (minor) downsides: defeating an enemy who was getting 1000GP of reinforcements per day and letting him live to fight again ought to disqualify Kapou'e as a general for life, and my heart sank when I realised I had to do it over again. The level suffers from some of the same problems as The Human Army — lots of watching allies fight before you get to do anything much — but much less so than the previous level. And it does feel like a rerun of the previous level.

(7) I would probably look to change the previous level.
(8) No, but the death of Howgarth should have.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern_Alliance_replay.gz
Look Ma, no Howgarth!
(109.69 KiB) Downloaded 951 times
User avatar
Pewskeepski
Posts: 378
Joined: November 17th, 2010, 6:24 pm
Location: An icy dungeon beneath Antarctica

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by Pewskeepski »

I found a bug. At line 130, Shan Taum's gold amount is as follows...

Code: Select all

{GOLD 400 350 300}
It should be changed to...

Code: Select all

{GOLD 300 350 400}
"Everything is better with penguins."
Creator of Burning Souls, The Fall of Wesnoth (abandoned) and Adventures of Knighthood (now available on BfW 1.15!)
User avatar
zookeeper
WML Wizard
Posts: 9742
Joined: September 11th, 2004, 10:40 pm
Location: Finland

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by zookeeper »

Pewskeepski wrote:I found a bug. At line 130, Shan Taum's gold amount is as follows...

Code: Select all

{GOLD 400 350 300}
It should be changed to...

Code: Select all

{GOLD 300 350 400}
Thanks, fixed.
cerion
Posts: 19
Joined: June 15th, 2010, 9:25 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by cerion »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.9.9, medium

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

0. Enemy forces are clearly outnumbered. The east orc AI and Howgarth even split their forces and killed Shan Taum before my wolves could get there.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

The initial setup with the ambush was pretty fun.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

none

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

3

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

Reduce the quality or quantity of allied orc troops. Also, I would have cut scenario 17 for being too similar.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
(9) If you know a bit of the Wesnoth Markup Language - do you think that the WML of this scenario is clear and well commented? If not which part would you like to be documented better?[/quote]

n/a
line
Posts: 94
Joined: January 11th, 2012, 9:21 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by line »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Warlord (Nightmare) 1.10.3
1119 starting gold (allies: 678/678/300), enemies: 1000 (Earl is reinforced every 6th move starting from turn 3 = afternoon)/400
Finished turn 13

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. Easy. I have lots of gold and a long list of L3 units waiting to be recalled…

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
Clear. But as said before, there should be some explanation why Hogwarth is so weak. It doesn't fit into the storyline, that the mighty Northern Alliance is the weakest part in the battle.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
Getting fast enough to my keep (it’s tempting to engage in the fight in the beginning with Kapou’e) to start recalling.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
9. I really liked being able to recall a lot. Also I like that there's no turn limit.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Weaker allies.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
None.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern_Alliance_replay.gz
(109.08 KiB) Downloaded 1313 times
SBak
Posts: 78
Joined: October 8th, 2011, 1:36 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by SBak »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Challenging (easiest) 1.8.5 and 1.10.5

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2 - I think out of all the mainline campaigns Liberty has the easiest final scenario but this comes a close second.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Very clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
This was a good ending to a very good campaign when it comes to the plot and story. Kudos to the developers for their creativity and putting this together.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

The start. Working out which Orcish Warrior to kill so the characters could head towards the keep was difficult, but at least it wasn't weighted as much as other scenarios and probably wasn't weighted at all.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

I recalled my best units sending my main force south and a smaller specialist unit east to support my allies. My forces with the allies cleaved the enemy forces from the Earl into two sides and pretty much Kapou'e, Gruu and Jetto strolled directly south to Earl Lanbech and killed him.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
I could say that the scenario was too easy but I don't think any changes need to be made, because if you've got this far you should have a really good army of Northerners and would have gained experience of using every single Orcish, Troll and Wolf unit. This is something not shared by all the other campaigns, and overall the shortcomings and deficiencies of this campaign pale in comparison of the challenges faced and what is gained from playing it.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No not really.. and in fact over all the scenarios this one usually results in the fewest losses.
User avatar
Maiklas3000
Posts: 532
Joined: June 23rd, 2010, 10:43 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by Maiklas3000 »

(1) Difficulty, version, gold? Nightmare, 1.11.13, 391 starting gold
(2) Difficult? (1-10) 9 (it has been changed from the above reviews.)
(3) Clear? Clear.
(4) Dialog? I echo the criticism above: "Yeah" is a lame way to end the scenario.
(5) Challenges? I had to replay the previous scenario to get more gold. Even then, I got quickly overrun after getting to my keep, spending all my gold, and lining up along the moat. So, I had to think outside the box. Would my human ally mind if I use his keep? He's got awesome mountainous terrain to thwart the enemy Lancers and Knights. So on my next attempt I ran Kapou'e southeast and found my human ally was willing to share his keep. I stole all but one of his villages. I was able to kill Shan Taum and then slowly pushed west. I had Kapou'e leave to support the troops, and when I needed to resume recruiting I had him go to the big castle with the empty keep. When I had 68 units I got tired of pushing units and once again stopped recruiting and had Kapou'e leave for the front line. The Earl died in his keep.
(6) Fun? (1-10) 8, almost a 9 but the end was a bit tedious.
(7) Changes? None necessary, but lower base income for the Earl would make the end come quicker.
(8) Restarts? Two save-reloads to save my criticals.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern_Alliance_replay.gz
(231.75 KiB) Downloaded 834 times
sine_nomine
Posts: 39
Joined: April 30th, 2016, 11:34 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by sine_nomine »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Nightmare 1.12.4

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
8
365 starting gold

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
clear

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
AI commands proved very effective here: by telling everyone to attack Shan Taum, the east orc ally managed to delay him at the river, the west orc ally didn't delay the loyalists' advance (allowing me to attack them ASAP), and the human ally managed to kill Shan Taum by himself. The west orc leader put up an amazing fight before dying.
I borrowed the east orc ally's keep to recruit/recall units and I took a defensive position using said keep. The main challenge was enduring the first couple human attacks while also dealing with the orcs coming from the side. I dealt with the waves of humans until my human ally could join me on the counterattack.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
7.5

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
Nothing

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No



Overall, I thoroughly enjoyed this campaign. It's easily the best one I've played so far in terms of level design, the challenge is excellent, and the storyline is even good (though it could use an edit). Thanks to everyone who designed and balanced this campaign.

I forgot to mention this earlier, but something kept bothering me: does anyone else think Earl Lanbec’h looks like an orc?
Attachments
SotBE-Northern_Alliance_replay.gz
(140.4 KiB) Downloaded 813 times
LordWolfDan
Posts: 216
Joined: September 30th, 2018, 7:31 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by LordWolfDan »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

- 1.14.5, Challenging

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

- 10

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

- Clear, get rid of those sons of b...

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

- Great ending, couldn't wait to waste the crap out of these two villains. They got what they deserved, plus I learned a lot about orcs and their living style

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

- Again, too many enemies to handle

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

- 7

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

- More money to my allies

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

- Not really
JoelPera
Posts: 26
Joined: June 9th, 2015, 7:29 am

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by JoelPera »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?

1.14.14, Warrior (Difficult)

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)

6.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?

Clear.

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?

A good conclusion to this tale.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?

Retreating back my leader and launching a two-pronged assault to keep both enemies as bay.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)

7.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?

I actually came to just give feedback to the entire SotBE campaign. I feel it kind of has a step-motherly treatment compared to other campaigns. While I liked the story, dialogues and occasional humour, the one major thing missing is the lack of loyal units. Their presence drastically improves a single player campaign here and merely getting just a loyal assassin in this entire campaign really doesn't amount to much. True the Saurian leader is there as well. But just few idk loyal units with a little dialogue of their own would help. Like the first wolf rider Vrag who visits you at scenario one. He could be a good loyal. Then the grunt who says "you do us honour" when Kapoue arrives to save him. Another potential one. Having them as we progress helps keep interest early on.

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?

No.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern Alliance replay.gz
(192.82 KiB) Downloaded 305 times
User avatar
max_torch
Inactive Developer
Posts: 414
Joined: July 31st, 2011, 5:54 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by max_torch »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
Warlord (Nightmare), 1.14.17, 300 + 40 starting gold, no reloading of turns

(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
9. 10 is reserved for Siege of Barag Gor and The Silent Forest which I found more difficult.

(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
Perfectly Clear

(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
It's good but the weakest point is obviously Gruu's "Yeah" at the end of the scenario. I also have some dialog additions for Albrock and Flartar explained below.

(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
I basically turned this scenario into The Siege of Dorest. The challenge was just staying alive while being attacked from multiple sides by two strong opponents.

(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
I'll give this a 9. This scenario had good design. Finally you have an ally that can actually take down an opponent by himself. Howgarth is impressive.
The Great Horde mechanic really shines here, as it allows you to scale up a large army which represents the might of the horde, and it makes defending a viable tactic (together with the fact that there's no turn limit) since you can grow stronger over time due to this mechanic. Instruct Ally on Howgarth actually works well and can be incorporated in planning and strategy. It's also fitting that the last scenario of the level is the longest scenario. It was nice to play a scenario which was a large army battle which did not have a turn limit.
-1 to the score because of issues with the orc allies which I'll explain below.

(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
The Scenario Objectives suddenly changes to allowing Albrock and Flartar to get killed without resulting in a defeat for no thematic reason, and additionally their leader behaviors also suddenly change from being careful in the previous scenario to being suicidal in the current one, without any hint of this communicated to the player. I actually had to restart a few times, because I wasnt expecting the leader behavior to have changed from the previous. It just surprised me. Instruct Ally to be more defensive didn't help either. Here's my recommendation: Add dialog that goes like this
Kapoue: Flartar, Albrock, you need to be more defensive if we're going to survive this.
Flartar and Albrock: We have to prove to the Northern Alliance that we don't need their help, but we have to be more aggressive in order to take the fight to the enemy!
Kapoue: Alright, you've demonstrated your abilities throughout this campaign. Lead your men as you see fit. I will give you control of some villages.
When they finally die a random Orc says: They should have listened to the wise Son of the Black Eye.
Kapoue: Their courage will be remembered.
This makes more sense as I abandon them to die while I hold a defensive position. Also, explicitly indicate in the Scenario Objectives that the allied leader behavior has changed,

(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
Some restarts because I was caught off-guard by Flartar and Albrock being suicidal. One restart because Gruu died (this was a salty one since I was already winning, and it involves Gruu missing all three of his attacks on an enemy). And then a few early restarts because my defense was broken and overrun due to wrong recruit and unit positioning.

I almost wanted to restart when orcs were standing on my castle walls, but I'm glad I didn't as I was able to recover.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern Alliance replay.gz
(161.88 KiB) Downloaded 93 times
mal_shubertal
Posts: 93
Joined: December 1st, 2018, 6:58 pm

Re: Scenario Review: SotBE 18 - Northern Alliance

Post by mal_shubertal »

(1) What difficulty level and version of Wesnoth have you played the scenario on?
1.16.6 Nightmare 666 starting gold
(2) How difficult did you find the scenario? (1-10)
2. But then again, I started with an absurd amount of gold because I finished the last scenario so quickly
(3) How clear did you find the scenario objectives?
very
(4) How clear and interesting did you find the dialog and storyline of the scenario?
very. I think it was a very satisfying ending to the story. I was surprised that, after all that effort, Kapoue turned down the invitation to the Northern Alliance, but it makes sense for the very independent-minded orcs, and I like the idea that they found their 'peace and prosperity' by just becoming an entire nation of professional mercenaries, a very orc-y way of solving their societal problems and playing to their strengths. This is why I really love the writing in this campaign, it fleshes out the orcs to be more complex and well developed people with believable personalities and culture, rather than the way they're often portrayed in the other campaigns as just random mindless murderers, but it still maintains their uniqueness and 'edge' and doesn't just make them into hairy humans.
(5) What were your major challenges in meeting the objectives of the scenario?
allocating my forces between the fronts and coordinating with allies.
(6) How fun do you think the scenario is? (1-10)
8. It's complicated and interesting, with a lot of different allies and enemies. It was a little too easy, but I finished the last scenario with such a huge carry over that I think that was inevitable.
(7) What, if any, are changes you would have made to the scenario to make it more fun?
More control over your allies. Howgarth in particular is a little ADD and his units kind of wander back and forth between the 2 enemy leaders. The eastern orc ally also tends to send a huge force south and then act surprised when Shan Taum's entire army hits him undefended. Just being able to tell each ally which enemy to focus on would make things much more manageable.
I agree with everybody above that Gruu NEEDS a better last line, it's such a wasted opportunity for such a great character. Maybe some joke like, "But chief, where will we find mint cordial?".
(8) Was there any event that caused you to lose the game and forced you to reload or restart the scenario?
No, I came in with so much gold that it was pretty easy.

I just want to say, regarding the whole campaign, this was GREAT. My favorite campaign of all time, so far.

The one big-picture change I would want to see would be having more scenarios that put the saurians to good use. The way they're introduced is so interesting, and you have Inarix as one of your few loyals for half the campaign, but they're never given a real chance to shine. This campaign really needs at least one scenario with a ton of swamp terrain, or Inarix as an independent leader, to give the saurians a chance to really carry their weight. Nagas and goblins are also conspicuously absent, which seem like major omissions for a long Northerners-focused campaign.

For writing, Gruu is perhaps my favorite character in all of wesnoth. The line "Chief, I have a subtle plan..." cracks me up every time, and his cheerful bloodthirstiness is a nice counterpoint to Kapoue's relentless seriousness. The line where he asks Kapoue for a pony like Lisa Simpson, but ironically because he wants to eat it rather than ride it, is also fantastic. In his best moments, he's written a lot like Drax in the Guardians of the Galaxy movies, or Conan when played by Arnold Schwarzenegger, where talks in a way that makes him at first seem stupid or 'primitive', but then he will be surprisingly insightful or funny. But it's really uneven from one scenario to the next, and 'punching up' some of his dialogue to bring it all up to the same level would be great.
Attachments
SotBE-Northern Alliance replay 20221221-153712.gz
(128.61 KiB) Downloaded 61 times
Post Reply