Son of the Black Eye (Hard)

[darrell]

I've managed to survive the San Taum the Smug on Hard (with one saveload) but somehow can never manage to carry forward any gold.

Starting the next scenario with only 100g seems to make it pretty impossible (at least on Hard.........both enemy leaders have 40+ income before gathering villages).

Anyone got any hints on how to win this one??

[Disto]

Cheat? Your in a pretty dire situation there....

[baruk]

I just had another go at son of the black eye on hard (I previously got as far as black flag before giving up). I'm in the same position as darrell, I've managed to get as far as Saving Inarix (luckily without needing any save loading), but I only have about 100 gold.
I think this scenario, on hard difficulty, is either impossible, or as close to impossible as you can get. Yes, I've thought this about certain scenarios before, and have later found ways around them. However, whilst victory has often been just agonisingly out of reach in previous difficult scenarios, in this one I haven't come anywhere close to finishing it.
What is more, I think that the usually reliable solution of repeating previous levels until you have more gold and exp will not do any good this time. I suspect that even with 10,000 gold and 30 level 3 units, you would still fail to get those lizards across that damn bridge.

I checked the income of the two enemies: they start the game with 47 gold income, seem to get about 8 gold per village, with about 15 - 20 villages on their half of the map: somewhat over the top, even for hard difficulty. The player starts with 2 gold income, and gets 1 gold per village (he starts near 6 villages).
Basically this lets the enemy swamp the whole bridge area in a sea of units, I think you would have to kill about 4 or 5 units a turn just to cut through it. Is this what was intended by the campaign maker, or is it just an oversight?

The only feasible way you could finish it would be to save-load like a maniac every turn, so that you kill 4 units a turn whilst taking no losses.

Has anyone actually completed the scenario on hard difficulty (or medium for that matter)?

[Elvish_Pillager]

I suspect that even with 10,000 gold and 30 level 3 units, you would still fail to get those lizards across that damn bridge.

Hehe! This was pretty easy, I did it on my first try with no saveloading.

[baruk]

I suspect that even with 10,000 gold and 30 level 3 units, you would still fail to get those lizards across that damn bridge.

Hehe! This was pretty easy, I did it on my first try with no saveloading.

Ok, I exaggerated a little, you're not supposed to take me literally every time! Yes you can complete the scenario on hard, if you have 10,000 gold and 30 level 3 units. Now try playing the campaign on hard without editing it or save-loading, and try to complete Saving Inarix. If you manage it, tell us how.
Notice that even with all the high level units and decent money, it still took you until turn 14 of 16 to finish it, and you still took heavy casualties.
I think it might just be possible with 200 gold, and recruiting 10 level 2 and 3 units. That should be more of a challenge. And the other challenge is to save up 200 gold from Shan Taum the Smug (getting enough high exp units should be easy enough). I'm going to give it another try myself.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Well, I haven't yet gotten past Black Flag in Hard, so that won't be an easy task!

Heavy casualties = I was not being careful because I didn't need to be.
Taking 14 turns = I was being more careful than I needed to be.

I would have to try this scenario multiple times, presumably, and the advantage I would gain thereby would outweigh the disadvantage of having to be careful, though not the disadvantage of not being a superpower.

[baruk]

Update: I got a bit closer to finishing Saving Inarix, but it took a lot of attempts. I actually managed to get Inarix across the bridge. I failed to save any of his friends, and Gruu the troll hero was killed before I ran out of time. I only have 105 gold, and a few level 2 and 3 trolls.

I've been trying Shan Taum the Smug again, and during one attempt, I managed to get as far as the enemy castle. Unfortunately, Gruu got killed before I could finish the enemy leader. I'm hoping you get some decent bonus money if you kill him.

[Shotor_Rider]

I finished the SotBE on hard after two sleepless nights with ONLY 10 losses. Except at the end of the "Black Flag" and "the Smug" which I didn't have the paitence to restart the scenario many times no saveloading is used.

I will bow to anybody who can finish the first scenario (End of Peace) with no losses! After many many tries I think the best one can do is with two losses, the replay that I have has 3 losses.

EDIT: I was viewing my replays and noticed that for some reason after it ends and the next scenario begins the stats of the previous scenario are multiplied by 2, e.g. if you have lost one troll it shows two or if you have killed 10 of the enemies it shows 20. This bug should be fixed. I have added the last turn of the "Clash of Armies" as well.

The damage inflicted and taken are slightly different from EV. This is due to the fact that 42 Gryphon riders are killed with each having 26 or 24 hit point but since Troll Warriors or Orcish Warlords usually kill them in one or two strikes they won't have the chance to inflict their damage. And also multiple restarts of each scenario gives me an edge over the EV.

[baruk]

[quote="Shotor_Rider"]I finished the SotBE on hard after two sleepless nights with ONLY 10 losses. Except at the end of the "Black Flag" and "the Smug" which I didn't have the paitence to restart the scenario many times no saveloading is used.

[quote]

Well done!

I haven't played wesnoth in a little while. Someday I might go back to the campaigns and try to match your effort. I don't know if the campaign has been changed at all between versions, but at the time I found the Saving Inarix scenario to be hellishly difficult. At any rate 10 losses is a praiseworthy achievement.

[baruk]

I finished the SotBE on hard after two sleepless nights with ONLY 10 losses. Except at the end of the "Black Flag" and "the Smug" which I didn't have the paitence to restart the scenario many times no saveloading is used.

I'm proud to say I finally managed to finish the SotBE campaign on hard with no save loading (and with 56 losses - I don't worry myself too much with reducing casualties, it is tough enough in any case).

You know what? I watched your replays and I picked up on your very simple solution to Black Flag: charging the enemy castle with both leaders, without trying to recruit. All this time I had tried a conventional approach, running to the empty castle and recruiting troops, I had dismissed a rush strategy as not feasible.

Attempting Black Flag again, using a leader rush, I managed a 7 turn victory (of a possible 20) after just a few tries, garnering an impressive gold bonus. This victory proved the key to unlocking the campaign: the extra money allowed me to finish silent forest in 9 turns (of 30), leaving me with over 600 gold for Shan Taum the Smug (my previous best attempt left me with only 300 gold). The extra troops I was able to recruit allowed an early finish to this scenario for the first time (turn 14 of 20). This provided me with over 200 gold for Saving Inarix (previously I could only muster 100 gold). Suddenly I could recruit all the troops I needed for this challenging level, and before long I had managed to finish it, along with the less difficult final scenario.

I've attached my replays, and the saved position at turn 24 of the final scenario. I think my favourite level was Shan Taum the Smug, because it has a lot of favourable terrain that you can take advantage of. Just watch the carnage unfold when a troll rocklobber occupies the hill hex overlooking the river. Enemy assassins happily jump into the river, and use their missile attack on the troll. I've regularly seen about 4 or more assassins perish in this way in a single turn.
Least favourite: Saving Inarix. This level was really a bonfire of the vanities for me, I lost all but 2 or 3 of my levelled units attempting to save the useless lizards.

What is more, I think that the usually reliable solution of repeating previous levels until you have more gold and exp will not do any good this time. I suspect that even with 10,000 gold and 30 level 3 units, you would still fail to get those lizards across that damn bridge.

As I had hoped, I was wrong with this statement. In the end, I needed 256 gold, 4 level 3 units (including 3 trolls) and 8 level 2 units to complete Saving Inarix. I think my frustration with the level is in part because it seems so crowbarred into the campaign: we've never met these saurian fellows before, why, as an orc, do I care whether they live or die? Inarix is just a liability for the final scenario as well: you have to keep him safely inside the fortress, as he will die from 2 full gryphon attacks (causing you to lose, as he is still an "essential npc").

[Sly]

As I had hoped, I was wrong with this statement. In the end, I needed 256 gold, 4 level 3 units (including 3 trolls) and 8 level 2 units to complete Saving Inarix. I think my frustration with the level is in part because it seems so crowbarred into the campaign: we've never met these saurian fellows before, why, as an orc, do I care whether they live or die? Inarix is just a liability for the final scenario as well: you have to keep him safely inside the fortress, as he will die from 2 full gryphon attacks (causing you to lose, as he is still an "essential npc").

Did you play the current last version ?

I lost Inarix in the followinf scenario (Clash of Armies) and I didn't loose, I only lost the possibility of recruiting Saurians.

And about saving Inarix, I easily finished it with lvl2 and lvl1 units, most of them leveled

[baruk]

As I had hoped, I was wrong with this statement. In the end, I needed 256 gold, 4 level 3 units (including 3 trolls) and 8 level 2 units to complete Saving Inarix. I think my frustration with the level is in part because it seems so crowbarred into the campaign: we've never met these saurian fellows before, why, as an orc, do I care whether they live or die? Inarix is just a liability for the final scenario as well: you have to keep him safely inside the fortress, as he will die from 2 full gryphon attacks (causing you to lose, as he is still an "essential npc").

Did you play the current last version ?

I lost Inarix in the followinf scenario (Clash of Armies) and I didn't loose, I only lost the possibility of recruiting Saurians.

And about saving Inarix, I easily finished it with lvl2 and lvl1 units, most of them leveled

The version I completed it with was 1.0, the same version from when I started the campaign 6 months ago or so.

You should post the replay of your completion of Saving Inarix, it may make a good comparison with my attempt, to see how much the scenario has changed over a few versions. Were you also playing on hard difficulty?

[Shotor_Rider]

Good job baruk! I saw some of your replays, as I said I did do some save and loads so I can't really brag with 10 losses. But you have recruited 4 times me.

Also u have been unlucky as your inflicted damage is much lower than EV.

Nevertheless I still think that my saving inarix replay is a masterpiece:)

I am working on finishing end of peace with no losses. I think its quite a challenge. My best is with 2 losses.

I am stuck in the updated version though..I can't beat Barag Gor.

[Sly]

The version I completed it with was 1.0, the same version from when I started the campaign 6 months ago or so.

You should post the replay of your completion of Saving Inarix, it may make a good comparison with my attempt, to see how much the scenario has changed over a few versions. Were you also playing on hard difficulty?

Arf sorry I didn't note that you were talking about Hard, I did it on Medium

(So maybe the difficulty hadn't changed a lot)

But still, Inarix isn't a "not to loose" char in the last version, so there is no problem anymore (coz he is so frail, I also lost him to a griffin in two blows )

[baruk]

Good job baruk! I saw some of your replays, as I said I did do some save and loads so I can't really brag with 10 losses. But you have recruited 4 times me.

Also u have been unlucky as your inflicted damage is much lower than EV.

Nevertheless I still think that my saving inarix replay is a masterpiece:)

I am working on finishing end of peace with no losses. I think its quite a challenge. My best is with 2 losses.

I am stuck in the updated version though..I can't beat Barag Gor.

I think your 10 losses is a quite impressive achievement, a couple of minor save/loads or not.
The way I see it there are two types of save/loading: white and black. The black kind is a type of micro-management: at its most extreme form saving between each battle in order to extract the most favourable result from the RNG each time. It is shown up quite obviously in the overall statistics.
The white kind is the sort that Wesnoth campaign bashers like you and myself are more familiar with. You save in order to save time, rather than gain advantage. The position you save at is no more or less favourable than dozens of other attempts, you just wish to bypass the playing of the same moves and recruitments over and over. I used this approach when I played the valley of death scenario in the main campaign. Basically it comes down to being a matter for your own conscience, if you know you are not gaining advantage by doing it, then you know its ok to do.

Most of the scenario replays of my SotBE campaign are somewhat less than perfect, but I think my best efforts would be Shan Taum the Smug, and the early finish of Silent Forest. Harbour of Tirigaz and Saving Inarix were fairly crude and bloody slugfests. They were arguably the two toughest levels (for me at least) and I was happy enough with the results to carry on the campaign rather than perfect them.

I am going to update to the latest version, and I might have a go at your end of peace no losses challenge. For the moment I am trying to finish the Rise of Wesnoth campaign: I have reached the RoW scenario, but I am retrying the Vanguard level to try and reduce casualties.

Arf sorry I didn't note that you were talking about Hard, I did it on Medium

(So maybe the difficulty hadn't changed a lot)

But still, Inarix isn't a "not to loose" char in the last version, so there is no problem anymore (coz he is so frail, I also lost him to a griffin in two blows )

Hey no problem. The change to Inarix status in the latest version sounds an improvement. I might try the campaign again in the latest version.