Test of the Clans

[Na'enthos]

Anyway, going straight to the exit is unfair, IMHO. You shouldn't know about it and that's part of the scenario's difficulty.

If a scenario's difficulty is based entirely on what you don't know about it, I think there is a problem. People will replay scenarios, and pretending that you do not know something which you do know while playing is not actually playing, IMO.

I view the difficulty of a scenario from the point of view of a first-time player (of that scenario). If it would be easy if you go straight to the exit and not-so-easy (or harder) if you don't I'd say you have to take the first-time player into account.

Really, what scenario is designed to be played twice? Not that replaying is bad..

[Dacyn]

what scenario is designed to be played twice?

You don't have to "design" a scenario to be played twice unless there is a secret.
And most people replay scenarios to get more high-level units, anyway.

[Na'enthos]

what scenario is designed to be played twice?

You don't have to "design" a scenario to be played twice unless there is a secret.
And most people replay scenarios to get more high-level units, anyway.

Even if that is the case, that isn't the point. It is like saying you should know it beforehand. First time players will go to the castle and IMHO the difficulty should be derived from that fact and how one can finish the level without any knowledge about the scenario..

[Dacyn]

the difficulty should be derived from that fact and how one can finish the level without any knowledge about the scenario..

Maybe partially, but if you can win without trying on the second time then there is a problem. Why can't it be balanced both ways?

[Iron]

I just passed Test of the Clans on medium with only 100 gold. Basically I brought back 5 gryphons and sent them straight for the leader as others have suggested, while retreating the other units to the NE corner to avoid any combat. Yes, you get 2000 gold doing it this way, but it really feels like cheating, taking a lame way out to get through.

My problem though is that from the last of the cave levels where you get the scepter (which drained my bank balance to zero), there seems to be very little opportunity to build up your gold supply. There's that level where you have to avoid the 2 armies and survive to the end of the turns - no early finish bonus there in other words. Then the elven council, where they don't vote to give you any gold which is a pity. The Statues has few villages and is hard to finish early (it was for me anyway), and I can't see how to get much of a bonus in the next level where you cross the river.

Were it not for the easy (though highly dice-dependant) method of beating Clans, I'd be stuck on this and the next level due to lack of money to recruit a big enough army.

[Na'enthos]

the difficulty should be derived from that fact and how one can finish the level without any knowledge about the scenario..

Maybe partially, but if you can win without trying on the second time then there is a problem. Why can't it be balanced both ways?

I have no problem with that, I just am of the opinion that this strategy of making a run for the exit gives very little leeway for the player what with the masses of enemies on one's heels and the playes also partially depending on luck as to what teh computer recruits and how long the horsemen stay alive. If you do it right is should be easy, I'll grant that, but if one goes to the 'castle' first it just may not be possible.. at least, I haven't been able to do it. Last try I did get to the fake entrance and got Delfador close to the exit, but it was not to be, alas.

I guess in all of this I am mostly arguing against a general verdict of 'easy' on this scenario.. an easy scenario for me doesn't necessarily allow for a specific strategy to easily finish the scenario if it isn't obvious. And this strategy is far from obvious for first-time players. Hey, I've read a post which said that the Valley of Death is easy simply because they know a good strategy. I don't necessarily see a scenario as easy unless the strategy (or one of them if there are multiple) is obvious.. or close enough with a bit of thinking. I think we can also conclude that those who are more skilled in wargames and know a bit of strategy and tactics are more likely to find the right strategy for a given scenario..

[Doros]

I just passed Test of the Clans on medium with only 100 gold. Basically I brought back 5 gryphons and sent them straight for the leader as others have suggested, while retreating the other units to the NE corner to avoid any combat. Yes, you get 2000 gold doing it this way, but it really feels like cheating, taking a lame way out to get through.

My problem though is that from the last of the cave levels where you get the scepter (which drained my bank balance to zero), there seems to be very little opportunity to build up your gold supply. There's that level where you have to avoid the 2 armies and survive to the end of the turns - no early finish bonus there in other words. Then the elven council, where they don't vote to give you any gold which is a pity. The Statues has few villages and is hard to finish early (it was for me anyway), and I can't see how to get much of a bonus in the next level where you cross the river.

Were it not for the easy (though highly dice-dependant) method of beating Clans, I'd be stuck on this and the next level due to lack of money to recruit a big enough army.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. In the last 5 or 6 levels, there are almost no villages that you can get to before the opposing armies. In several, there are no finishing bonuses. In some, the level is practically designed to force you to overbuild your army (why do stoned warriors require upkeep?). It's hard to beat any of these levels without a cheap strategy, because the only way to beat a level with 5 or 6 guys is to assassinate the leader.

[Porcupine]

I just passed Test of the Clans on medium with only 100 gold. Basically I brought back 5 gryphons and sent them straight for the leader as others have suggested, while retreating the other units to the NE corner to avoid any combat. Yes, you get 2000 gold doing it this way, but it really feels like cheating, taking a lame way out to get through.

My problem though is that from the last of the cave levels where you get the scepter (which drained my bank balance to zero), there seems to be very little opportunity to build up your gold supply. There's that level where you have to avoid the 2 armies and survive to the end of the turns - no early finish bonus there in other words. Then the elven council, where they don't vote to give you any gold which is a pity. The Statues has few villages and is hard to finish early (it was for me anyway), and I can't see how to get much of a bonus in the next level where you cross the river.

Were it not for the easy (though highly dice-dependant) method of beating Clans, I'd be stuck on this and the next level due to lack of money to recruit a big enough army.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. In the last 5 or 6 levels, there are almost no villages that you can get to before the opposing armies. In several, there are no finishing bonuses. In some, the level is practically designed to force you to overbuild your army (why do stoned warriors require upkeep?). It's hard to beat any of these levels without a cheap strategy, because the only way to beat a level with 5 or 6 guys is to assassinate the leader.

Gee, took the words right out of my mouth. But also, another point is that I like it when you have some screanos where you have to run for it, or assasinate the leader and so on, and others where you got to take em out the old fasond way. It keeps you on your toes if you have to be always switching stratagies. But about Test of the Clans, I don't think it was intended to be won by a comando raid. But then there is no other way to beat it!

[turin]

test of the clans is not balanced, and, most likely, will never be balanced, because i have a campaign of my own to balance now and that takes a LOT of time. I've been meaning to balance TotC for a while, but never had time, and i doubt i will get time.

if anyone wants to volunteer to balance it, send it to me/dave/shade/etc and I/dave/shade/etc will review it and decide if it is more balanced.

[dtw]

i did it in 20 turns starting with 100 gold - i assasinated Ba-thing with horsemen - was lucky - got three lance hits in three attacks - 2200 gold for last level now should be easy enough!