Unit bloat

sanna · Post by **sanna** » October 19th, 2004, 9:35 am

Currently there are 211 units in CVS head, and several more seem to be on the waiting list. That is an additional 16 units just since 0.8.5. If we go even further back, 0.8.0 had a mere 159 units.

For me the charm of Wesnoth lies very much in knowing your units, what they can and cannot do. Each unit has a unique quality, or should I say, used to have a unique quality.

With the current trend of adding yet more and more units, it is getting increasingly impossible to get a feeling for each individual unit. Instead, you constantly have to refer to unit charts. To me, this effectively takes all the fun out of playing the game.

I think it is time to stop adding new units. In fact I think that several units currently in CVS head could and should be removed. This would not lessen the fun of playing Wesnoth, it would heighten it.

miyo · Post by **miyo** » October 19th, 2004, 9:42 am

I concur.

e.g. We don't need so many Merman and Naga units. We don't need to give healing and magic to Merman and Naga (healing and magic users have been few in Wesnoth, let's keep it that way).

IRC talking about the issue can be found at http://irclog.wesnoth.org/wesnoth-dev and the 20041019 log starting from 09:46

Also, http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3505

- Miyo

Post by **Neoriceisgood** » October 19th, 2004, 10:04 am

Long line was cut with axe by Miyo

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

If no more units get added I'm out of work =(

Circon · Post by **Circon** » October 19th, 2004, 10:08 am

Start making campaigns and packing the units in there.

Post by **Neoriceisgood** » October 19th, 2004, 10:13 am

I don't know wml =( And only one unit in the drake/saurian alliance reaches level 3; at least let me finish those branches..

Dacyn · Post by **Dacyn** » October 19th, 2004, 10:20 am

Neoriceisgood wrote:If no more units get added I'm out of work =(

That's OT...

sanna · Post by **sanna** » October 19th, 2004, 10:26 am

Neoriceisgood wrote:I don't know wml =( And only one unit in the drake/saurian alliance reaches level 3; at least let me finish those branches..

I have difficulty in seeing why a branch without a level 3 should be considered unfinished.

Post by **Neoriceisgood** » October 19th, 2004, 10:40 am

Because I say so; each faction has several level 3 units; there shouldn't be one faction who lacks this mayorly =) It'd be unbalancing.

Sithrandel · Post by **Sithrandel** » October 19th, 2004, 10:50 am

I would agree... keep new units to core wesnoth few and far between.

Have as many as you want within campaigns / etc

Circon · Post by **Circon** » October 19th, 2004, 11:15 am

THE AXE! THE AXE! (If you need it, axe the Dark Spirit. I can put in Nati.)

Then we can have Civ3-style Modpacks to add on. "Jetryl's Ocean Modpack" and "Level 3 Bandits Modpack" are a start.

silene · Post by **silene** » October 19th, 2004, 11:29 am

sanna wrote:I think it is time to stop adding new units.

I wholeheartedly agree. Always adding even more units does not make the game any better. Where is the fun in having to remember the characteristics of more than 200 different official units? I can't even tell at first glance which level the new mermaid units are. We are slowly but surely drifting toward a completely obscure game where you won't even be able to move a unit without first looking at the help system. KISS was a great concept; unfortunately we are not here anymore, having 200 official units is *not* simple.

For campaigns we already agreed that having more than 12 scenarios is a bad idea. It's time we make a decision on how many units and factions the basic game should have. I'm not speaking about the campaign server at all, I'm just speaking about Wesnoth core. We can't just let it bloat; never forget it is possible to die from indigestion, I don't want it to happen to Wesnoth.

And to think that the first reaction people had when speaking about a Wesnoth board game was: let's considerably reduce the number of units...

cedric · Post by **cedric** » October 19th, 2004, 11:50 am

Nothing much to add to what was already said, besides the fact that I indeed completely agree. All the cautiousness about adding new units is gone, and it's not a good thing at all, imho. But well...

--
Cedric

Post by **Neoriceisgood** » October 19th, 2004, 11:56 am

There are alot of units that solly excist for campaign purpose; like "unspecified" and "monster"; and I'm pretty sure no-one keeps track of their characteristics, and ofcourse undead have 3-4 units only seen in campaigns; etc, these are all from before the campaign server became reality; However there are many unit ideas many people have nothing against; a level 3 revenant, the javelineer branch for the spearman; just to add a finishing touch to excisting units; However perhaps someone should take the time to check the unit list and find out how many units are actualy "in" the game; I know there are around 4-5 boats in there whom are practicaly identicle whom fill up a part of the unit list; so make catagories:
1-"base" of wesnoth;(Units we are so damn used to that removing them would lead to mayor catastrophy trough multiplayer and most campaigns, you can change this to "Heir to the throne unit list; minus the 1 time appearance things like monsters)
2-"Multiplayer" units;(Specified units that are rarely seen in campaigns, These mostly excist of newer units like the drakes, saurian tribalist; and even the woses)
3-"Campaign" units;(Dragons, Monsters and the likes; perhaps evil villians like Asheviere)
4-"Truely obselete" units;(What's that? A unit with same stats and graphics but a different name? Is it even used anymore? No-one cares about those)

1&2 are the ones that should form the base of wesnoth; Though 2 is underapreciated as it is a single player game these units are the ones you face in wesnoth everyday;
This will be the biggest group as 1 includes all the loyalist unit; all elves, almost all orcs, all undead except ghouls; the dwarven fighter, gryphon; etc.

Post by **turin** » October 19th, 2004, 12:37 pm

I agree that it is definitely time to stop adding new units. HOWEVER, i don't think we should stop adding upgrades to units. More third level units would be nice, and would only add about 10 units. An advanced revenant, advanced orcish assassin, advanced goblin spearman, and advanced ogre would all be useful units that would not clutter up the unit tree, IMHO.

what we should be careful about is adding new 1st level units, not finishing current trees.

Circon · Post by **Circon** » October 19th, 2004, 12:42 pm

turin wrote:I agree that it is definitely time to stop adding new units. HOWEVER, i don't think we should stop adding upgrades to units. More third level units would be nice, and would only add about 10 units. An advanced revenant, advanced orcish assassin, advanced goblin spearman, and advanced ogre would all be useful units that would not clutter up the unit tree, IMHO.

what we should be careful about is adding new 1st level units, not finishing current trees.

Agreed. First level units should be few, higher level units should be recognizable as a) an advancement and b) related.

Come on, people, post axeable untis - I suggested the Dark Spirit, and we can slo vote to move units into modpacks that unzip into /wesnoth/units.

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