The Orcish Assassin is Orcish, right?

[Dacyn]

No, that's discussing specific user-visible changes. Discussing implementation details would be discussing precisely how the change is achieved: through using a terrain movement override in the Orcish Assassin's unit definition vs changing the movement type to orcishfoot vs creating a new movement type for the Orcish Assassin.

I see what you mean....

If i'm not wrong, what EP suggested was to give the Assassin Orcishfoot, or at least the same movement bonuses of it.

You are.

This means that EP does not want do give the Orcish Assassin orcishfoot, which is an implementation detail.

To me, this just means that humans are not good on moving in rough terrain.

Alright another way of putting my point is that there is nothing to change for the Thief, since there are no terrains that humans go particularly fast on. The entire idea of changing the Orcish Asssassin is based on the idea that Orcs move faster in some terrains.

[Elvish_Pillager]

Orcs are disposable.

Assassins cost more than Elvish Fighters. They're not so disposable.

Therefore, it doesn't need to get away.

Ok... give the Orcish Assassin Slowed-when-it-hits!

Anyway, not all orcs live in hills, so that's not a good reason for all orcs being able to move quickly in them.

So orcs should be good only in the terrain they live in? So there could be forest-orcs and tundra-orcs? Do I have any idea what you're saying?

[Elvish_Pillager]

Not really. Humans are just humans. There are more humans than other races, sure. I don't know if that makes them 'more generic'.

Anyway, theives do have the same kind of movement as other humans, they're just slightly better at moving. I'm not discussing defense here.

IMO this, especially combined with EP's suggestions to make factions entirely composed of one race each, will lead to an incredibly boring game, always decided entirely by terrain.

That's not an opinion, that's a belief. Or is that a fine line? Anyway, the game is entirely decided by terrain already. And the suggestions can hardly be combined if neither is implemented.

I would like to push for much more terrain diversity within factions, rather than less.

Interesting goal. Why not merge all factions, then?

[Gafgarion]

[Gafgarion]

[Elvish_Pillager]

That's what I would call 'discussing implementation details'.

No, that's discussing specific user-visible changes. Discussing implementation details would be discussing precisely how the change is achieved: through using a terrain movement override in the Orcish Assassin's unit definition vs changing the movement type to orcishfoot vs creating a new movement type for the Orcish Assassin.

Oh. I guess I'm too used to WML, and I think I said to change the movement costs just for the orciah assassin... just those movement costs... which certainly implies [movement_costs] tags.

I know. My point is that humans don't have a particular terrain that they move quickly on, which is another reason I consider them generic.

To me, this just means that humans are not good on moving in rough terrain.

The undead also don't have a particular terrain that they move quickly on, and drakes move equally fast on almost all terrain.

David

Yep, all the other races are terrain-consistent. Why not orcs?

[Invisible Philosopher]

Anyway, not all orcs live in hills, so that's not a good reason for all orcs being able to move quickly in them.

So orcs should be good only in the terrain they live in? So there could be forest-orcs and tundra-orcs? Do I have any idea what you're saying?

No, you don't have any idea what I'm saying. I'm saying that orcs' speed in hills cannot be because they live in hills, because not all of them do live in hills. Presumably orcs are trained to move in hills quickly. (and that training conflicts with orcish assassins' skills to defend themselves well on hills, perhaps, or they didn't have any time to get that training because they were too busy learning to use poisoned darts.)

[Dacyn]

[movement_costs] tags.

No such tags exist... you mean [movement costs] tags

Presumably orcs are trained to move in hills quickly.

the grunt's movement cost in hills is not a result of training for war, IMO. Why would the orcs expect battles to take place on hills?

I have a theory: the orcs evolved to go fast on hills.

[autolycus]

I have yet another theory: orcish assassins are trained to go more slowly in hills and mountains because hills and mountains are harder for them to move stealthily in than forest or grassland.

[Dacyn]

hills and mountains are harder for them to move stealthily in than forest or grassland.

That doesn't make any sense, IMO. How can you move stealthily through grassland?
Anyway the Orcish Assassin doesn't really move stealthily, since it doesn't have invisibility. It just hides when it sees someone coming to attack it.

[autolycus]

When I was in the army, it was easier to lie prone in grass and be invisible than lie flat in some hills (the brown types in Wesnoth anyway) - more comfortable too! It was also easier to wriggle in grass without making funny noises than it was to do the same on rock. But hard rock is a different matter; it's the friable rock which is a pain.

[Dacyn]

hm... I wonder why virtually all units have better defense on hills than grassland, then? I guess it's not about realism...

[autolycus]

hm... I wonder why virtually all units have better defense on hills than grassland, then? I guess it's not about realism...

Defence on hills is easier cos you have altitude advantage. You can lob things down on people (for example) easier than they can lob things up at you. You can hide behind a crest, hull down. You can force the enemy to work harder to get at you because moving uphill is about 4x more difficult in terms of energy expenditure than moving downhill...

I think I was just reflecting on possible and plausible reasons why a stealthy unit might find it easier in some terrain than others, relatively speaking.

[AT]

This is a hell of alot of debate over one very small change. Since so many people seem dead set against it, why not let it go?

[Elvish_Pillager]

This is a hell of alot of debate over one very small change. Since so many people seem dead set against it, why not let it go?

Cause they need their opinions changed.