UTBS, God, and Wesnoth (*SPOILER WARNING*)

[Dacyn]

It doesn't seem to me like we have an actual policy on reference to God - or, more generally, references to the (non-)existence of God(s) - within the World of Wesnoth. We just have a sort of "don't want to offend people" attitude, which usually results in no references to God. In fact, it always resulted in that, until UTBS was added to mainline.

this seems to be agreed...

Besides, it turns out to be an imposter and there never is any appearance or divine intervention beyond that.

isn't that the problem, though? It would be like saying that religions are false...

I think it could be a good idea to go in the other direction though... don't exclude any campaigns based on reference to religion.

[Darth Fool]

Besides, it turns out to be an imposter and there never is any appearance or divine intervention beyond that.

isn't that the problem, though? It would be like saying that religions are false...

I think it could be a good idea to go in the other direction though... don't exclude any campaigns based on reference to religion.

As an advocate of wesnoth being agnostic, let me address both your statements. First, no, saying that a particular instance of a fantasy deity turning out to be an imposter is not generalizable to all religions. Heck, it is not even generalizable to one religion, because the existance of an imposter does not mean the real thing doesn't exist. Just because I create a new account 'dave_' and go around saying things about wesnoth that are wrong doesn't mean that 'Dave' doesn't exist. It just means I'm a fool for thinking that I will get away with it for long. Also, given the current real world religions, there are several that are mutually exclusive. They can't all be correct, and so even if one did turn out to be provably wrong, a highly questionable point to begin with, it would not in any way imply that the others were wrong.

As for not excluding campaigns based on reference to religion, I would oppose any campaign becoming official that either made reference to a real world religion, or one that was definitive that in the Wesnoth universe there was or wasn't a real deity or set of deities. This, of course, is not a hard line that lawyers can say yes this campaign does or does not cross it, but instead requires judgement on an individual basis.

Finally, let me say that there are sufficiently few official campaigns, that there is not a need for a lawyerly rule. The guidelines that are established serve to help campaign designers understand as much as possible what the developers are thinking, not to constrain the decisions of the developers. Each campaign must be judged on its own merits, and any attempt to try to cram a campaign into some box to determine if it is OK to add as an official campaign is futile. It reminds me of the discussion on how to judge poetry in the Dead Poet's Society.

That said, is any developer seriously suggesting that UTBS should be removed as an official campaign? If not, I think this discussion can be closed.

[turin]

If you think that UTBS's religion is "vague"... sorry, but I don't know what you're smoking.
UTBS, when I played it, although it was ambiguous on the subject of Eloh, seemed rather definitive about the fact that Yechnagoth was both a god, and very real. (You fight and kill him at the end. ) I might have misinterpreted it, but...

In any case, my problem with religion isn't that I'm against having some sort of cosmology in Wesnoth. But having a good cosmology is really hard. And introducing a campaign that includes some reference to God(s) by definition introduces some cosmology. I don't think such a thing should be added haphazardly, as just a byproduct of adding a new campaign. (If it is introduced at the time the campaign is added, fine - but it is not a subservient entity.)

Having the Desert Elves have religion while having no religion anywhere else makes no sense to me. I fail to see why UTBS taking place "after the fall" has any relevance whatsoever.

I'm not saying UTBS should be removed, but that more thought should be put into its effects on the World of Wesnoth than the amount that seems to have been put in.

---


And, also, when exactly did all of these discussions over UTBS take place? I have no recollection of them, and I read every mailing list email and almost every forum post. All I cam remember is a peudo-discussion about it on the ML that was not resolved in any way; it ended, IIRC, with people saying "well, I dunno..." and then the thread dying. And I did voice my concerns in that thread, although I didn't make a big deal out of it, because from what I could tell any decision-making was very far off, and it seemed premature.

[Dacyn]

First, no, saying that a particular instance of a fantasy deity turning out to be an imposter is not generalizable to all religions.

I wasn't saying anything like that. My point is that the idea expressed in the plot is that of a religion considered true being false, in fact as turin says being corrupted (or whatever you want to call it). Obviously people are not going to use this to conclude anything about any real religion...
although my first statement wasn't really intended to have a point. It was just an introduction...

I would oppose any campaign becoming official that either made reference to a real world religion

how would that even be possible, unless the campaign were set outside of Wesnoth? It could be similar to a real religion, but as long as it is different as well I don't see the problem. Of course if it is not different then there is a lack of originality, a different problem (or is it? I don't know what your logic is)

or one that was definitive that in the Wesnoth universe there was or wasn't a real deity or set of deities.

I don't see why not, though, unless there is a problem with different campaigns contradicting each other on this...

[quartex]

If you think that UTBS's religion is "vague"... sorry, but I don't know what you're smoking.
UTBS, when I played it, although it was ambiguous on the subject of Eloh, seemed rather definitive about the fact that Yechnagoth was both a god, and very real. (You fight and kill him at the end. ) I might have misinterpreted it, but...

Let's try to keep this conversation civil please.

The Desert Elves religion is vague in the fact that I never reveal whether or not Eloh actually exists. So I never validate Zhul's faith nor refute it.

What is a god? An primitive culture that encounters a powerful creature with miraculous powers could eaily consider it a god. (cf. Star Trek Next Generation "Who watches the watchers?") UTBS isn't making broad generalizations about elves as a whole. I telling a story about a specific group of elves in a specific time.

Becuase UTBS is set "After the Fall", its version of reality does not effect the rest of the defined universe. If I had created a story in Konrad's time about the elves and their religion, that would have violated the precept that the elves have no religion in his time period. So I intentionally set it in a vague time period that would not interfere with the established reality.

Yes, the mere existance of a story with elves and religion does highlight the lack of the topic in other campaigns. I don't think players will mind. I intentionally don't try to explain it, except that we haven't seen the elves worship gods until "After the Fall". Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But that's not for me to decide. The developers and community can take whatever stance they want on the subject without the two interfering with each other.

[turin]

Let's try to keep this conversation civil please.

I thought I was. Whatever. If I offended you, I'll apologize.

The Desert Elves religion is vague in the fact that I never reveal whether or not Eloh actually exists. So I never validate Zhul's faith nor refute it.

True - but don't you in fact validate the existence of Yachnagoth? Unless I am really misunderstanding UTBS, Yachnagoth is indeed a god, albeit an evil one - so you are incorrect in saying that the religion is all that vague.

What is a god? An primitive culture that encounters a powerful creature with miraculous powers could eaily consider it a god. (cf. Star Trek Next Generation "Who watches the watchers?") UTBS isn't making broad generalizations about elves as a whole. I telling a story about a specific group of elves in a specific time.

But, by introducing the idea of god(s), even for a specific group of elves in a specific time, you have introduced it everywhere. Before, Wesnoth existed in an essentially agnostic world - no one thought about god, period. I think the reason for this is that, in my view, if we introduce god(s) we are either mocking the idea of faith (in general - not a specific faith) or trying to make some deeper statement about faith (more on this later). Since, obviously, we are a very diverse group of people are we are really unlikely to agree on such a statement, I would find it hard to see it as anything other than mocking the idea of faith.

I suppose you could say that UTBS is your creation, so it is just you making such a statement, not everyone. It all boils down to whether you view making a campaign official as similar to a publishing company publishing a book - the publisher does not necessarily endorse the message of the book - or as essentially saying that what the campaign says about the world of Wesnoth is true. I see it as the latter.

Becuase UTBS is set "After the Fall", its version of reality does not effect the rest of the defined universe. If I had created a story in Konrad's time about the elves and their religion, that would have violated the precept that the elves have no religion in his time period. So I intentionally set it in a vague time period that would not interfere with the established reality.

Sorry, but I don't see this as valid. If people "After the Fall" feel the impulse to worship something, I fail to see why people "before the fall" would not. Human (or elvish) nature did not change during the fall.

Yes, the mere existance of a story with elves and religion does highlight the lack of the topic in other campaigns. I don't think players will mind. I intentionally don't try to explain it, except that we haven't seen the elves worship gods until "After the Fall". Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But that's not for me to decide. The developers and community can take whatever stance they want on the subject without the two interfering with each other.

I don't understand what you are saying here...

---

Now, for more on that idea of "mocking the idea of faith". Here's what I mean by that - if you create a world that has gods of some sort in it, but you don't on some level believe in those gods, you are just making a parody of religion. I'll take Tolkien as an example. He didn't believe in the Valar, but he didn't look on them as a joke. Now, Tolkien had created a religion that didn't really contradict his own, but i think you could still have something meaningful to say abou it if you don't believe in it at all. Phillip Pullman, as I understand it, created a world with God in it to make a point about his atheism. But both of those are fundamentally different from your generic D&D world with its D&D gods - the creators of D&D weren't trying to say something about religion, they just said "hey, giving these guys a religion would make them more realistic, lets think of some interesting religion to give them", That, to me, is just a parody. I don't think I'm explaining this very well. It's a hard concept to explain.

[scott]

Yachnagoth was a powerful creature. Therefore, you seem to have misunderstood UTBS.

But, by introducing the idea of god(s), even for a specific group of elves in a specific time, you have introduced it everywhere. Before, Wesnoth existed in an essentially agnostic world - no one thought about god, period.

I think you also misunderstood the game. Wesnothians were not agnostic. WE are agnostic about Wesnothians. For all we know, they go to mass every Sunday. Religion IS everywhere in the game. They are probably all religious, worshiping a wide variety of gods and God. It is WE who do not ask the question.

How do your recalled mermen make it into the caves in the Scepter of Fire level? We don't know. How do you have an infinite supply of soldiers on a ship in Saving Elensefar? We don't know. How do all those soldiers eat during the course of a scenario? We don't know. Are your soldiers religious? We don't know. The policy is let's not ask. But, Quartex asked because he needed to in order to tell his story. This appears to really bother you, but I think you should get over it.

The policy of not asking is not the same thing as not having religion and says nothing about the game's stance on any religion that's uncovered after the question has been asked. If you would like to ask about the religious tendencies of your campaign's Wesnothians, it might fly and it might not.

It's a 2 step process: asking the question and then dealing with the answer. Since the dev team appeared to prefer not to deal with the answer, the first step of player agnosticism was introduced. However, that policy by itself says nothing about the second step (how the dev team will feel about any religion that is defined).

The world of Wesnoth is 100% unchanged. We have only glimpsed a piece of it that we normally do not see. The dev team is comfortable with the results. I ask you to consider taking the same position.

[quartex]

For the record: Yechnagoth is not a god, she's is an extrtemely powerful creature from another plane, (most of her abilities involve mind-control and long-distance communication). However my point was that an extremly powerful creature from another plane could be considered a god by more primitive cultures, and that is why she is portrayed as such in the campaign. I don't have a strict definition for what a god is, I think it depends on the beholder.

[Jetrel]

For the record: Yechnagoth is not a god, she's is an extrtemely powerful creature from another plane, (most of her abilities involve mind-control and long-distance communication). However my point was that an extremly powerful creature from another plane could be considered a god by more primitive cultures, and that is why she is portrayed as such in the campaign. I don't have a strict definition for what a god is, I think it depends on the beholder.

Remember the saying:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."

I see nothing wrong, and actually several things good about promoting the statement I outlined in bold. Just because something is called a God, by the writer of the campaign, doesn't mean that the campaign writer thinks it's a god. It means that the campaign writer is accurately simulating the viewpoint of a character, rather than doing an exposition.

Exposition = terrible/campy writing. For a great example of this, watch the movies "Big Trouble in Little China" or "Army of Darkness". It's a great tool for humor, but a terrible tool for good writing.

[turin]

Yachnagoth was a powerful creature. Therefore, you seem to have misunderstood UTBS.

If you say so. But, if there are creatures that powerful in Wesnoth, it seems like a rather big addition to the WoW... all of a sudden we have huge scary monsters that could destroy mankind in a single breath flying around the world. That's a rather big addition.

I think you also misunderstood the game. Wesnothians were not agnostic. WE are agnostic about Wesnothians. For all we know, they go to mass every Sunday. Religion IS everywhere in the game. They are probably all religious, worshiping a wide variety of gods and God. It is WE who do not ask the question.

Sure, sure. My argument was not against Wesnothians having religion, it was about us saying anything about their religion.

The policy of not asking is not the same thing as not having religion and says nothing about the game's stance on any religion that's uncovered after the question has been asked. If you would like to ask about the religious tendencies of your campaign's Wesnothians, it might fly and it might not.

It's a 2 step process: asking the question and then dealing with the answer. Since the dev team appeared to prefer not to deal with the answer, the first step of player agnosticism was introduced. However, that policy by itself says nothing about the second step (how the dev team will feel about any religion that is defined).

Um... huh?

The world of Wesnoth is 100% unchanged. We have only glimpsed a piece of it that we normally do not see. The dev team is comfortable with the results. I ask you to consider taking the same position.

Actually, it is changed - it has been expanded. Previously, there was the possibility of religion in Wesnoth; now it is a fact.


My complaint is not, I suppose, with the idea of adding religion to Wesnoth - it is with the manner it has been done. It doesn't make sense to me to have religion in one age but not in another. But I guess no one agrees with me, so I'll stop complaining.

[Cuyo Quiz]

Think Dune turin, where all religions are just complicated contraptions of social events/trends.

And well... making the land go to hell seems like a very good excuse to put powerful creatures on the new desolated-as-hell land.

Good campaign, no meddling with the Default, not illegal/polemic... it can be in IMO.

[SmokemJags]

isn't that the problem, though? It would be like saying that religions are false...

Just because there are imposters doesn't mean religions are false.

[Dacyn]

SmokemJags: see what I said above: I wasn't implying a logical connection.

although my first statement wasn't really intended to have a point. It was just an introduction...

Although I don't really see why they would continue to believe in their god after that; OTOH, I didn't actually play the campaign...

[SmokemJags]

Oh, my mistake. Nevermind me.

[Dacyn]

I'm looking over the campaign. The religion seems to be a random mixture of Christianity and polytheism. Some of the statements are inconsistent:

I have no power in the dark

You may be all powerful

Taken in context the statement is even stranger:

You may be all powerful, but I will not be your puppet. I am still their leader and as long as I draw breath I will do what I think is best for my people.

If Eloh is all-powerful, why wouldn't Kaleh follow his[1] orders? Unless Eloh is either a) not omniscient, which is contradicted by

don't you exist everywhere?

(I assume omnipresence implies omniscience; I don't see what else it could mean)
or b) not trying to help them, in which case you're dead anyway (and you should be trying to appease him, not make him angrier )

BTW, why do they swear to Uria? Isn't she the devil?

[1] I'm using this pronoun because I think it makes more sense referring to an all-powerful being.