The high elves

[Disto]

Leather is armour, it is better at stopping arrows than chainmail but not crossbow bolts.

[xtifr]

Aaaah! Nassssty Elveseses! Horrid Elveseses! World already has too many nassty elvesies, humansies, dwarfsies. Can only thank preciousssss that there aren't any nasssty hobbitsses! Us doesn't wants more nasssssty elveses, us wants more nice orcses and goblinses to stomp out, crush and destroy nasssty elveses and humanses! Nasssty, shiny, horrid, glowing elveses!

Well, Smeagol, I partly agree with you. Although I think you'd have to admit the art is beautiful, wouldn't you? No, I suppose you wouldn't. But I think it's beautiful. But I agree that there are far too many of what I might loosely term the "good guys" already. There's already way more types of elves than orcs, more humans (even if you ignore the thieves and barbarians) than undead, and on top of all that, there's dwarves! The thieves could have been a nice balancing for the, um, dark side of the force, but somehow they ended up allied first with the elves, and then with the dwarves. Makes it kinda hard to think of them as evil after that. (I won't even mention the drakes, except to say that they sure don't seem dark to me!)

There's a lot of talk about unit balancing and faction balancing, but not enough, IMO, about general game balancing. While I can't really find it in my heart to criticise these units - they're too gorgeous - I do find myself questioning whether we really need them at this point in the game's development. US WANTS MORE ORCSESES AND GOBLINSES AND OTHER NICE CREATURES! Er, I mean, I want more orcs and goblins and other nasties.

Of course, I have to admit that you guys are lucky that I don't have Jetryl's skills, or, with my taste for the macabre and gothic, you'd be drowning in orcs, goblins, undead, and other creepy-crawlies. I'd probably have a separate troll faction already.

[Invisible Philosopher]

But I agree that there are far too many of what I might loosely term the "good guys" already.

More unit types is not bad. At least not when they are only used in campaigns as appropriate, where they provide more variety, which is all that would happen by merely including them in Wesnoth. In fact it's mostly irrelevant whether they are included in the official Wesnoth because campaign designers can use them as custom units.

I agree with you however that it would be nice to have a greater variety of "bad guys". And good job with the Sméagol quote too.

[Jetrel]

Well, I am going to finish up a the race of naga... They're generally fine for use as bad guys.

[Dave]

We might have more 'good guys' than 'bad guys', but certainly not by that much. Certainly, we have many more chaotic units than lawful units, and far too many neutral units. It'll be nice to have some new lawful units.

In terms of good/evil, we have,

Elves - good
Dwarves - good
Humans - either way
Drakes - either way
Undead - evil
Orcs - evil

I don't see how things are really so unbalanced in terms of good vs evil units. I think many people would categorize Drakes as evil, in which case evil units would fairly strongly outnumber good units.

David

[Drake Pillager]

Drakes aren't evil, They are just misunderstood =( I know, I've been one.


Anyway, The art on your elves is like wowyo wow; I think you did a really neato job on them, Although the first level cavalry is kind of large yes =( I hope these get included they're gold.

[romnajin]

Drakes say either way, not evil.

[turin]

And dwarves aren't good, any more than humans are! They're greedy, selfish pigs, although occasionally they can be noble. And they can even, in some situations, be evil, although they are not used as such in any current wesnoth campaigns.

Elves are currently, IMHO, the only "good" race, while humans and dwarves are both either way, but leaning towards good. Drakes are either way, leaning towards evil. Orcs and undead, evil (duh).

[Na'enthos]

And dwarves aren't good, any more than humans are! They're greedy, selfish pigs, although occasionally they can be noble. And they can even, in some situations, be evil, although they are not used as such in any current wesnoth campaigns.

That depends. Wesnoth Dwarves may be as you say they are, though.

[Dave]

And dwarves aren't good, any more than humans are!

Dwarves can be evil......and even Elves can be greedy and evil. However generally when they choose a side to fight on, Dwarves will fight on the 'good' side.

Dwarves wouldn't ally with undead and orcs and terrorise the countryside. Humans would.

David

[MadMax]

In FtF, drakes are not evil, but they are by no means good. They are ill-tempered beasts who will fry you if you look at them the wrong way. They can also hold a grudge for centuries (most live to be 100, although they have been known to live to 150).
They also have a deep hatred of humans, dating back to when Haldric defeated them.

Their society consists of orc-style tribes, but unlike orcs, there is very little infighting among tribes, and they do not value honor.

[Jetrel]

I'm of the opinion that though elves can be evil, after a fashion, that is beyond doubt the exception, rather than the rule.

A couple examples of evil deeds by elves in Tolkien's work include the acts of Eol, the "dark elf", and the incident where Feanor's people killed a bunch of the Teleri(?) when they refused to help Féanor recover the Silmarils.

Féanor needed ships to cross the ocean, and they refused to give them to him. It was rash and evil, though, because it's not like taking a few years, or even decades, off to learn how to build the things himself would really have hurt Féanor, being immortal and all.

Elven evil doesn't stem from outright malfeasance, rather from misunderstandings, and impatience. Elves running around pillaging and looting just wouldn't happen, because they have nothing to gain.

[Neoriceisgood]

Elves running around pillaging and looting just wouldn't happen, because they have nothing to gain.

Gee, Did you put up this example for any specific reason c.c ?

[turin]

In LOTR, in the battle of the Last Alliance (the first fight against sauron), all races fight on both sides, except no orcs fight against sauron, and no elves fight for him. Dwarves and humans fought on both sides.

I know WIN_, but it draws heavily from LOTR.

@Dave: basically, I think dwarves would ally with orcs and undead and terrorize the countryside, IMHO. Elves might even do it. Heck, they do it in my campaign (which, of course, is not official).[/quote]

[xtifr]

If you look at other sources than Tolkien, then it's easy to justify the claim that Elves are not necessarily good - possibly even evil in some cases. Look, for example, at some of Poul Anderson's works, like the early fifties classic, The Broken Sword. Or any of the Eddas that happen to mention Elves/Alvir. (I'll ignore the modern notion that conflates the Elves with the Celtic Sidhe, even though I think it would make my point even stronger.)

Personally, to me, it comes down to: which side are you gonna be on when the chips are down? When Sauron's minions come pouring out of the Black Gate for the battle to end the second age of Middle Earth, who will you be fighting? When the final winter comes, Lord Surt lifts his flaming sword, the Fenris Wolf breaks his chains, and the end of the Nine Worlds is at hand, will you be standing with the Æsir or the Giants? By that measure (and I can think of no better), I would classify the elves, dwarves and humans as good, and the orcs and undead as evil (and I have no idea about the drakes).

Otherwise, I can't see any reason to put elves (or dwarves) in a different category from humans. You could say that we have four neutral factions, two evil, and no good ones, but that, I think, is a bit silly.

Anyway, this is drifting a bit off-topic (and it's partly my fault, so I apologize for that). Perhaps we need a new topic about Good and Evil?