Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

So finally, I think I will leave the boats with some artillery. Maybe no ranged so compensate for it, though. About that lobster, I must admit I seldom see what his real use would be... Mermen aren't really good on land anyway, but... I dunno, I just can't picture what advantage he would bring to the faction, what use he could serve...
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k »

OK, well here's how I see the Sub line working:

lv1 Ironclad: Steamboat looking thing, with 'paddle' type wheels on the outside that lower down to serve as makeshift wheels when on land. Ramming prow, and artillery cannon.

lv2 Destroyer: more powerful version of above.
lv3 Warship: more powerful version of above.
lv2 Sub: Torpedos are Ranged attacks, that can only strike targets in Water, with Marksman. (Making them ranged means the Pirate ships cannot retaliate; appropriate, given the nature of the attack - and also means that this highly mobile Submerged unit cannot attack Merman Hunter or Mermaids without fear of retaliation, which would be a balance issue.) Ram attack replaced by small claws. Submerge.
lv3 Nautillus: More powerful Torpedos, melee attack becomes Pierce Swarm tentacles. Submerge.

lv3 Lobster: Torpedos only slightly improved, much more powerful claws, land mobility on a par with Merfolk. Submerge.
The difference is that the Lobster is capable in land combat and is much better at redeploying to other bodies of water than the other craft; the trade-off is that it is not as good at the task of killing units whilst in water.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

Yeah, ok, why not? Sounds fair. Will tackle it later :)
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k »

Something just came to mind. Perhaps the Sentinel line should have Marksman on its Drill attack? It is, after all, a mining implement... hiding behind a wall is no defence! With its poor Defences and mobility, it's hardly the best unit to use for a HQ attack, but this could be an interesting addition.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

Hmm, I dunno, it already has the relentless thing, which is basically some kinda replacement for marksman (remember: when a strike hits, all remaining strikes hit). Pairing both of them might be a bit abusive, don't you think?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k »

Good point. I guess what's on my mind is the distinction between the massive mining drill on the Sentinel, and the more precise version on the Battle Bot. The BB's drill is basically used as a thrusting weapon, and Relentless represents it, well, drilling away at an enemy it's managed to skewer. I'm thinking this doesn't really fit the look of the gigantic, unwieldy thing on the front of the Sentinel, that would probably behave more like a cheesegrater when turned against enemies. And on second thought, Marksman doesn't really suit it that well, either, since that basically means it'll destroy Assassins and Footpads in all terrain.

Perhaps replace Relentless on the Sentinel with something that has the effect of treating targets in Hold, Courtyard or Village tiles as if they were on a Plains tile? This would represent its ability to plough through barricades, whilst not giving it an unrealistic ability to bullseye highly evasive units and leaving it quite incapable of dealing with Forests.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

That last special doesn't really sound all that KISS either... I'll leave it as Relentless for now, which I kinda like (i think that it's a flavory special, and that it's more consistent to have all similar weapons (drills) have similar specials).

I have finished doing the line reworking we spoke about and tweaked stats a bit more. Publishing it soon. I also redid the unit trees, which are updated on the post. You will notice I removed the cowboy sprites we had so far: they are still in the era, but I will wait 'till the style is better-established and more "final" before having the sprites in the unit tree.

I think the factions are nearing a final lay-out/design, so I'll try to take some time to playtest them all, anybody is welcome to play it and give their comments about balance too. Or maybe I will get on the artwork. Anyway.

EDIT: I just sent the era (v0.0.9) to 1.9's add-on server. I will add it to the first post shortly. Depending on how it goes, next version will likely be 0.1.0, which should mean that general design should be there and mostly finished. Not because of some conventionnal base 10 numeric system. So what will remain afterwards is likely a lot of play testing for balance, against each other and against mainline, and a lot of spriting. When all the sprites are done (by which time balance should have considerably advanced too), I think we'll be able to call publish v 1.0. Eh, not as near as it sounds :P I prefer not to do any time estimates.

By the way, I couldn't verify that advancement bug you reported, lindsay, since I can't enter local multiplayer with 1.9.1. I should be able to look into it in 1.9.2, although I looked at the files a bit and really don't have a clue as to what could be causing that.

Keep it up, guys! :)
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lindsay40k
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k »

Awesome, looking forward to giving them a whirl. How come we have a Bulldozer, Blocker and Howitzer branching off from Holder? Was four lv2 branches for the Tank excessive? It feels like it would be a lesser evil, compared with three lv3 branches from a single lv2.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

Hmm, yeah, maybe. It's probably true that the Howitzer could be made a Lv2. Bulldozer fits well as a holder level up, though, so I'd be inclined to leave him there. I do think 4 branches is a bit big, though. Maybe we should reconsider sending the Rampager with the Battle Bot?

Btw, @ the Rampager, I was thinking just now: is his berserk attack really fitting? Maybe it would actually be better to make it a relentless thing, like the drills? It would have more weaker strikes with blade damage, still having its big impact attack as an option... Thoughts?
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by lindsay40k »

Well... removing Berserk would certainly silence a lot of potential complaints about balance. I've certainly found it very easy to kill the AI by moving up a non-Berserk lv1 to within fighting distance of a non-melee leader, levelling up, and then sending a very robust Berserk lv2 to grind it into oblivion. And it'd make it fit better within the Battle Bot line, which as a mainstay brawler is something that could probably do with at least one branch. So yes, let's do that.

Bug reports:

Keeper lv2 is recruitable.

In Epic, Sentinel lv3 is recruitable, and Mad Pro and Robotician are available as leaders, but not Cyborg. Is no easy access to Brainjar/Mother brain intentional?.

Boat-bot cannot level up into Submarine.

100% defence bug is still present, affecting all factions.
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fog_of_gold
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by fog_of_gold »

There are 4 fast comments on your current version I want to mention:
1) tunnel doesn't work
2) the depraved rose has got RIPLIB: it loose its pollinate attack
3) I think it's better to switch charm and pollinate because pollinate is, I think, stronger than charm and also more rarly used/needed. Charm, as against pollinate, can be used more often and adds therefore flexiblity which always helps to make a game more interesting.
4) Wouldn't it be good to merge entangle and retentless? -They are always used together and retentless is a part of entangle.

..and one not so fast point I want to say, too:
5) I don't think it's a good idea to have the keeper as a lvl2 unit in the recruitable factionlist. They are one of the core unit. You need them to get this faction balanced. It isn't a good idea to do unusual thing to them in which you haven't experience by mainline since this unit is very important to be balanced. Also, lvl2 units in a lvl1 era aren't very balanced anyway. It's got good reasons the developers of this game don't want to have epic units in mainline: The villages are weaker for them and can therefore destroy the balance of a map being balanced in mainline. Since you can recruit them, you wouldn't advance a tank to them. This is equal to being unbalanced. It isn't good to be able to recruit units being stronger than some leaders. It would give a high unbalance for maps you aren't able to have much units leveled up, because you are, as against the others, able to get lvl2 units. Also, this unit could open total new possiblities in which the other factions have a lack of. They wouldn't be always able to counter them well. So if you really can't go away from having this unit as a lvl2 unit, I suggest you to put this unit to the battlebot and remove it from the tank and the recruitlist. This would be good since the keeper looks now more aggressive. If you are only able to get them on battlefield, it would be a better challenge and it gets very interesting. Also, with retenless, it is easier to level up this unit if you really want to. It would prevent this unit to be misused since they are harder to get. It's a bad idea anyway to keep them on the tank since it have already enough needed upgrades. Removing them from the tank, you would get able to include again the ships.
Last edited by fog_of_gold on October 9th, 2010, 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

Let's have a point-by point answer:

1) It is hard for me to really test stuff since I cannot enter local multiplayer under 1.9.1 due to a crash which should be fixed by 1.9.2. I could still try to test with 1.9.0, but I dunno what's the compatibility code-wise... I might prefer waiting for 1.9.2, actually, I kinda have my hands tied right now...

2) It loses it if you level up rose -> rose bush, but not if you go rose -> lily. Or maybe I forgot to add the Lily as a level up option? I'll double check.

3) Well, I agree it'd be much more flexible, but you were the one advocating charm being accessible on Lv2 only. I also agree the rose might be a bit pointless, as it is now, being weak and all. What would you say to having both charm and pollinate on the Lv1? Or do you prefer just charm at Lv1 and having the option of a pollinate specialist on Lv2? I dunno, the ability to produce sprouts (through pollinate) at Lv1 also greatly appeals to me...

4a) What you say is true for the Triffids, but not for the Bots, who use Renletnless without Entangle. So I'd still nee two versions of it, have if I created a merged one for the Triffids... Is it really bothersome?

4b) Arg, I totally forgot to remove the Keeper from the recruitables. Wouldn't be surprised I also forgot to add the boat bot and some stuff. I'll recheck everything over and post a fix. I'm not really sure I'm willing to reinclude the ships with the tanks, btw, and I though the Rampager was a much more agressive unit than the slow-moving Keeper, so I was rather thinking of moving the Rampager over to the Battle Bot's line...
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fog_of_gold
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by fog_of_gold »

1) After quick testing it looks like the tunnel tag is completly ignored. Anyway, let's wait for 9.2.
2) You can't level to a lily; only to the ruse bush and baleful bramble.
3) I'd really prefer only charm on lvl1. Maybe you can make me, but I'm not excited by an lvl1 unit producing sprouts.
4a=4) I wanted to suggest to make relentless+entangle->entangle and not to drop relentless completly. And no, it isn't bothersome, but it looks kinder if there's one special instead of two and especially because it's fitting better that way.
4b=5) The keeper is in my opinion too important to keep him in the tank line. As for the rampager, why not; there was enough space for the tank and there will be the rampager. You can include the ship or you can not include it. It was just a suggestion since we got enough space for the tank. If you don't, I'd suggest to move the howitzer into the lvl2 branch.
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Dixie
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by Dixie »

Well, I dunno about the Keeper/Sentinel. Sure, it's drill attack might lend him to being a bit aggressive, but it's still a pretty defensive unit: it does well only on one type of terrain (villages), it's got steadfast and interrupt, only 3 MPs... And all that makes up for a pretty powerful unit - I personnally think it might be good as a Lv2 Tank.

Appart from that, I fixed the stuff that was mentionned with the Triffids, sent the Rampager as a Lv2 Battle Bot, made the Howitzer a Lv2 Tank and gave him a Lv3. I also reworked the unit tree to reflect the changes, and will send the fix to the add-on server/on the first post.

Cheers!
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Re: Internet Meme Era v 0.0.8

Post by fog_of_gold »

For the keeper/sentiel, they have 3 moves so they'll be RIPLIB anyway, if you mean that. The problem of the tank is, that the tank isn't able to level very often, which is needed since the keepers are meant to balance the bad movement of them and they aren't recruitable anymore.
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