Anti-Gryphon thread

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deserter
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Anti-Gryphon thread

Post by deserter »

Doc Paterson wrote:
Yogin wrote:The Doc said: Aww.... tell all of us. Inquiring minds and tacticians want to know.
Don't get me wrong; exclusivity is not the name of my game. 8) I only wish to avoid filling up this thread with unrelated subjects. Start an anti-Gryphon thread and I'll jump right in. :D
There you have it!
What I have gathered when playing with Knalgans is that a pack of Gryphons can do anything in a little bigger map. I might not get a lot of support for this anyway...
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Post by Becephalus »

The other night some took 4 grphons against me and I had a balanced dwarf froce. I spaced m units a bit so when they attakced I was able to "capture" 3 of them, and they were eventually killed of course. I think I lost 1 ukfserker for 3 griffons (although a few units did sustain very heavy dmg). Granted your milage may very, but griffons do not bother me too much other than thier movement (which is geting reduced by 1).

I generally feel all the units in wesnoth are too fast and would mind seeing most units lose a movement point to encourage more tactical play.

Like Infantry 3 or 4, cavalry 5 or 6 and griffons 7 (of course so much would need to be rebalanced that this isn't really going to happen).
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Post by deserter »

it sound like a good idea to reduce movement of everybody, yes. I don't necessarily think that's what should be done, but it just sound...good. :)
Map balancing would of course be one thing in addition to unit balancing...

But the gryphons... I think that it is foolish to give your opponent a chance to trap them. I would more likely try to lure my opponents well-placed units so that it would become impossible trap the gryphons. It is hard to predict where they are going to strike when you can't see them...

Of course Knalgan against knalgan is very equal matchup and they have perhaps best weapons against the gryphon-swarming. maybe... i don't know what i'm talking about. ;)

One of the problems with the gryhons is that they see everything and you might not get a glimpse of them before they strike.
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Post by deserter »

The decrease of MP is good news anyway. That will do a lot i think.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Becephalus wrote:I generally feel all the units in wesnoth are too fast and would mind seeing most units lose a movement point to encourage more tactical play.

Like Infantry 3 or 4, cavalry 5 or 6 and griffons 7 (of course so much would need to be rebalanced that this isn't really going to happen).
This wouldn't encourage "tactical play", just change sorts of tactics that would be used. Remember, the speed of a unit has every bit as much to do with the tactics that can and/or cannot be used as anything else. Some tactics would become impossible if all units were slower, others would become more possible.

Personally, I don't like this trend toward nerfing the speed of mounted and flying units. Nerf them in other ways, if you must, but if they became too much slower, then mounted units and flying units would be no different than foot soldiers, and might as well be cut from the game.
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Post by Becephalus »

@deserter

As far as my opponents keeping the gryphons out of scouting range that was hard to do when I had a footpad and a gryphon with my forces.

I also wouldn't mind seeing gryphons take a piercing resistance hit for the same reasons cavalry have it.

@Temuchin

Well, I think the thought is that having units move at a speed of 9, 10 or 11 with no terrain penalties removes two large aspects from the game, terrain, and traditional war tactics (mantaining a front and secure rear areas, attempting to have balanced forces in a theater so you can handle different contigencies). So the tactics invariably become quick hit and run attacks against slower opponents or random "who can actually land a few hits" dice rolling wars against other gryphons.

Moreover the generally high movement rates remove the large scale tacitcal/strategic issues of commiting forces. In my opinion it is much to easy to shift back and forth between fronts and most maps tend to just be one continuous front with units shift along it. If someone errs and places most fo their untis way out of position, well no big deal cause they can get all the way across the map in two turns anyway. This discourages a thoughtful disposition of forces IMO and is a detriment to the game. it also discourages people from making balanced deployments, becuase if they don't have the unit they need they can just rush it in immediately from elsewhere.

Finally, reduced speed flying units would not be the same as foot units as they would still possess a huge movement advantage due to their ability to ignore terrain. This is just a silly red herring argument and you know it. No one is suggesting removing Flying untis from the game, and if you loked at what I said I mentioned reducing regular units speed too.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Becephalus wrote:having units move at a speed of 9, 10 or 11 with no terrain penalties
This would apply only to flying units, not to mounted units.
Becephalus wrote:Moreover the generally high movement rates remove the large scale tacitcal/strategic issues of commiting forces.
Surely that would depend on the size of the map on which you are playing and not on the movement rates of the units. If you play on a large enough map, this issue vanishes.
becephalus wrote:No one is suggesting removing Flying untis from the game, and if you loked at what I said I mentioned reducing regular units speed too.
I didn't say anyone was suggesting removing them. I said that if their speed were nerfed too much more they might as well be removed. Perhaps I overstated my case, but please do get the criticism right.
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Post by Cuyo Quiz »

If what was said about reducing Gryphon's movement by one, i think it is okay, after all, those things got annoying when they had the quick trait, no need to nerf the poor walking units too.

About dice rolling, the Gryphon is a pretty wild one too, having 2 attacks of considerable damage, it is as good at breaking statistics as a Thunderer, so maybe that is the part that bothers some, seeing them getting two attacks in.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Cuyo Quiz wrote:If what was said about reducing Gryphon's movement by one, i think it is okay, after all, those things got annoying when they had the quick trait, no need to nerf the poor walking units too.

About dice rolling, the Gryphon is a pretty wild one too, having 2 attacks of considerable damage, it is as good at breaking statistics as a Thunderer, so maybe that is the part that bothers some, seeing them getting two attacks in.
True, but some good archers can give him some real trouble. The lack of a ranged attack is a disadvantage for Gryphon Riders, as is the fact that they cannot ignore zones of control. We're not talking about an "über unit", just one with somewhat unusual capabilities.
Becephalus wrote:So the tactics invariably become quick hit and run attacks against slower opponents or random "who can actually land a few hits" dice rolling wars against other gryphons.
Have you ever used archers or wizards against gryphon riders? As with any unit that has a strong melee attack but no ranged, gryphon riders are vulnerable to archers and wizards.
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Post by Becephalus »

Temuchin-

I was the person who originally said I don't have much problem with griffons in terms of making me lose battles, so yes I know about isolating them and using ranged units. But if the person knows what they are doing, a horde fo grphons will fly in, attack and then fly away on the next trun, and you cannot catch them, unless they are not paying attention.

I am mainly just complaining about how I feel they change the game dynamics.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Temuchin Khan wrote: some good archers can give him some real trouble. The lack of a ranged attack is a disadvantage for Gryphon Riders, as is the fact that they cannot ignore zones of control. We're not talking about an "über unit", just one with somewhat unusual capabilities.

Have you ever used archers or wizards against gryphon riders? As with any unit that has a strong melee attack but no ranged, gryphon riders are vulnerable to archers and wizards.
This kind of reasoning will get you killed very quickly in upper level 1v1. You ask, "Have you ever used archers or 'wizards' against gryphon riders?" but honestly, I find myself wondering if you've really had much, if any experience with well-played gryphon tactics. Focusing on trapping gryphons with archers will result in an unsurmountable village advantage for your opponent. If you spread out, to try to keep up with them economically, they will strike isolated units, kill them, and continue taking villages. They choose when and where combat takes place, and if you're thinking that a bunch of lower-HP, ranged units will somehow be able to strike the first blow against a gryphon (using the gryph's lack of a ranged attack to do damage without retribution), you've really got another thing coming. A group of archers can of course kill a gryphon, but they'll have no chance against the next wave of units, which will outnumber them massively, and will be a direct result of their group-forming (because they didn't spread out, you lost almost all of your villages, etc.)

The best thing to do is to scout with units that can do reasonable damage to the gryphons during a gryphon attack, setting them up for trapping or finishing. It is remarkably difficult to trap/finish a well-played gryphon, because other gryphons will appear from behind the fog-line and set their companion free by killing the trapping unit. In this way, they cycle back and forth, healing and maintaining a large village advantage. This early game economy allows the Knalgan player a second wave swarm of land/gryphon units, which plow into the other player's weakened defenses.

At any rate-

If you really do believe that using a ranged-heavy army would be at all effective against a 4 gryphon start, by all means, go on the server and look for Soliton or myself.

It may also benefit your understanding to go to the "1v1 Replays" thread, and view the recent gryphon matches posted by Soliton. Note the recruitment choices of his opponent in the only match that he lost.
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Post by Temuchin Khan »

Doc Paterson wrote:I find myself wondering if you've really had much, if any experience with well-played gryphon tactics.
Probably not.
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Post by Doc Paterson »

Temuchin Khan wrote:
Doc Paterson wrote:I find myself wondering if you've really had much, if any experience with well-played gryphon tactics.
Probably not.
Understandable, as 99.9 percent of players using All Gryph Style are noobs.....Tends to give people a false impression of the unit.

In my opinion, the one-less-movement change is perfect; not too much, not too little.
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Post by toms »

No! No gryphons! Have you ever seen what they can do at blitz?

You don´t have to start a blitz MP against a dwarf if you aren´t one. You have lost before it
goes! :evil: :evil: :evil:
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Post by Tomsik »

Loyals: Heavy infantry - gryphons have -20% res to impact
Rebels: Woses - same
Drakes: Hmm? What's the problem? :wink:
Undeads: Skelies have nice blade res and adepts can freeze gryphons
Knaglans: Fighters + Thunderers i think
Norths: Grunts costs 1/2 of gryphon, i think two grunts on good terrain should kill gryphon, trolls have 20% res to blade and impact damage.
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