Undead's are unplayable agains dwarfs!

Post by **Doc Paterson** » September 28th, 2005, 2:26 pm

Shadowdweller wrote: LISTEN to Doc Paterson. He knows exactly what he's talking about.

I do have my opinion on this, but it's not as though I'm some sort of infallible authority.

Maybe the lot of us here should just try to play this matchup as many times as we possibly can (preferably against each other), in the hopes of uncovering something that we've missed . I can't be on the server much at all today, but if anyone would like to meet me there in about 12-14 hours, we can do some more testing.

telly · Post by **telly** » September 29th, 2005, 3:04 am

I think theres a problem whereever you have a unit thats better at everything than something else. I mean err knalgans vs knalgans if you imagine a game where one player can only recruit dwarf fighters and the other player can recruit anything but. The dwarf fighter guy is going to win most times yeah? Undead vs undead is even worse with corpses which is just about the most boring matchup in the world. In both cases neither faction has any counter for that particular unit except that unit. Which makes things pretty dull. Drakes vs drakes as well, clashers win against everything I guess. Rebels vs rebels you only really need fighters and archers, which are basically just different flavours of the same thing.

Anyway people wanted replays, so heres a game vs wp. Though I don't think it proves much as he was pretty tentative the first couple of turns which would probably of been fatal no matter what factions we picked and I'm sure he can play a lot better than this usually.

Post by **Doc Paterson** » September 29th, 2005, 3:13 am

telly wrote: Drakes vs drakes as well, clashers win against everything I guess.

This is a completely different topic of course, but I'd say the ultimate blend in that case is a moderate amount of tribalists, some skirmishers and a lot of clashers.

telly · Post by **telly** » September 29th, 2005, 3:18 am

Also lowering the hammer attack by 1 damage won't matter much as either way skeletons will still only take three hits.

A better non-painful change might be to reduce the movement of ulfserkers to 4, at the moment their mobility is so just good you don't really even need to guard them just like park them out of reach behind a mountain or something. A quick ulf has greater range than most mounted units effectively.

telly · Post by **telly** » September 29th, 2005, 3:36 am

Doc Paterson wrote:
telly wrote: Drakes vs drakes as well, clashers win against everything I guess.
This is a completely different topic of course, but I'd say the ultimate blend in that case is a moderate amount of tribalists, some skirmishers and a lot of clashers.

Oh yeah its better to have a mix thats not really what I saying. Its more that I think every unit should have some weakness that every faction (including their own) can use to counter it fairly easily. A mix of saurians and tribalists and clashers would be ok vs just clashers. But you can't win (directly, economically you might be able to of course because of clashers crippled movement) without the clashers there (I think, of course I haven't tried it out :).

I subscribe to the view that in games any strategy is overpowered where its easier to execute than it is to defeat. So if someone is going to just play a one dimensional game of recruit all clashers or all dwarf fighters or whatever, it should just be a simple matter of recruiting some other unit that beats them and winning easily. Else something is broke. IMO. Thats what I'm trying to demonstrate with all these mirror match examples.

Shadowdweller · Post by **Shadowdweller** » September 29th, 2005, 9:40 am

Hmm. I personally think more of the balance issues between Knalgans and Undead stem from the fact that so many of the undead units get eaten alive by the 'zerkers.

I'm really at a loss as to how to this might be corrected. Upgrading ghouls or ghosts would be one way, but likely have serious ramifications. I assume giving the relatively weak ghost melee attack a drain effect would be horribly unbalanced?

EDIT: Yeah, reducing 'zerker movement might help.

Tippsey · Post by **Tippsey** » September 29th, 2005, 11:03 pm

Hmmm changes for much of the undead faction were talked about including weaking the adept and changing the ghouls and skellies. But then Noy came in gave the current ghoul and wouldn't budge on any other changes, so we might as well keep the replays coming in to show how bad the undead have it or how good they have it.

Typhus · Post by **Typhus** » September 30th, 2005, 7:05 pm

I would like to see the Adept get a 1-1 or 2-1 melee attack, just so a 1 Hp Ulfserker doesnt always get a kill. Mages have a 5-1 with a staff, so why can Adepts get a 1-1, I'm sure they still have a Fist they can use...

Tippsey · Post by **Tippsey** » September 30th, 2005, 7:27 pm

True but with any melee attack the already cheap as hell adept when compared to mage would be be even more powerful course then not by much.

Post by **Jormungandr** » October 1st, 2005, 3:10 am

Typhus wrote:I would like to see the Adept get a 1-1 or 2-1 melee attack, just so a 1 Hp Ulfserker doesnt always get a kill. Mages have a 5-1 with a staff, so why can Adepts get a 1-1, I'm sure they still have a Fist they can use...

The Adept is currently the only unit with no melee attack. This is a good thing, because it's unique, and in general forces slightly different strategies in both using and dealing with them. Yes, giving them a token melee attack would make them play more like Mages, but this is not as interesting as their current state.

And of course, Wraiths eat Ulfs for breakfast. While they're lvl 2, Ghosts don't need that much XP to advance compared to other units.

All in all, I think I'd agree with some small increase in power to the Ghost and/or Ghoul, though; perhaps a slightly stronger attack for the former, a few more hp for the latter. Giving Ghosts drain on their touch attack would be thematically and tactically cool, though it might require some rebalancing in return.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 1st, 2005, 9:48 am

I would greatly support the following changes to the Ghost, as a package:
1) Add Drain to its melee attack.
2) Reduce all its resistances to 40%.
3) Rebalance it (probably reducing its cost.)

scott · Post by **scott** » October 1st, 2005, 12:09 pm

I think the ghost could use a couple more HP. I used to fear ghosts, and now they have so few hp I don't at all. Not many though. If you are trying to hack at them for lack of a 'ghost killer' it still takes some time.

Lindir The Green · Post by **Lindir The Green** » October 1st, 2005, 8:21 pm

If ghosts could drain, they would become great ulf killers. The problem would be that they would be even better at scouting/raiding then they already are.

maybe make a new unit with drain and good resistances or defense, but low attack and speed, such as a...

Golem?

maybe a Vampire?

What actually might work but would require a lot of coding is making it so that a WC created by killing an ulf is an ulf killer, with attributes exactly the same as an ulf, but with undead resistances and no rage.

That would make people think before charging into battle with hordes of ulfs backed up by a few fighters and scouts.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » October 1st, 2005, 9:09 pm

Let's see. By my suggestion...

Ghost now: 60% gives Ulf 2-4.
Ghost with my changes: 40% gives Ulf 2-4 or 3-4 with Strong.
Ghost now: 4-3 gives 4-3 damage to Ulf.
Ghost with my changes: 4-3 gives 4-3 damage to Ulf and 2-3 healing to Ghost.

So the Ghost would take about 0.4 damage per round against a normal Ulf and 2.4 damage per round against a Strong Ulf. Of course, because Drain cannot put a unit above max-HP, and because the values are so random, it's not a really accurate description. However, the bottom line is, my Ghost would be the perfect Ulf killer, which is exactly what the Undead need now against Dwarves.

It would not be all that good against other units. It would be stronger in melee by taking about 2 less damage per battle, and weaker in ranged by taking about 4 more damage per battle, against normal level 1 units who prefer that range.

And best of all (;)), it wouldn't violate RIPLIB!

Cuyo Quiz · Post by **Cuyo Quiz** » October 1st, 2005, 9:54 pm

If you are going to add a unit to the Undead, i stand by the Undead Steed with a lance-pierce (charge) attack, i just want to see a skeletal horse that makes the opponent shiver because of its speed and piercing resistance (he is mostly bone after all) and that can only be taken out by ranged fire or some messy impact melee. It should be like your dangerous bet to take out Drakes (and maybe costs as much or almost as much as one) and maybe elusivefoots too, but call in some impact or some mage and its time to pray he doesn't get turned into dust.

*reads*

So you could make Ghosts better and you didn't

?. I think it would be good, but what about the Ghoul?, would it be really necessary to improve him too or that would be overkill for the issue?, Ghost touch could become a favorite with this.