Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Then we should compare the unit with other masters from their respective factions, for example Royal Guards or Elvish Masters, or even Dwarvish lords even though they do not use swords. Are then these units not really "masters"?Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 1st, 2019, 12:58 pm Finally, do keep in mind that we're discussing marksman for a level 3 unit, and the unit name is "Bladesmaster". This in no way implies that the Dunefolk have better swordsmen as a whole – the bladesmasters are not representative of the average skill of a Dunefolk swordsman. They are the masters, the best of the Dunefolk swordsmen. So it's not strange for them to surpass the average elvish swordsman.
Right, its not exactly true that no human can surpass an elf, but I think it is true (and it is also the case in most fantasy worlds, not only in Wesnoth) that the best elvish swordsmen have unsurpassed skill with swords, although maybe they aren't physically strongest. The best of the best elvish swordsmen should surpass the best of the best human swordsmen, even if we assume their superior dexterity is a result of training, elves just use too many cheat codes.
I have talked with a few people about it and it seems that even strong campaign units level 3 or 4 don't get any melee marksman special or a similiar ability (unless its magical). At this point it is not only a matter of lore but also consistency with default era, mainline campaigns or even non-mainline campaigns.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Just because you are a master in something, it doesn't automatically has to be Marksmanship.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Clearly. But the question is not whether it HAS to be marksman but if we WANT it to be marksman. What do other people think about this? Any preference for the Soldier advancements having or not having marksman?
Yes as name has said the Spearmen do deal more damage in most circumstances than Fencers. But overall speed and skirmishing ability, when used properly, can easily account for the lesser damage.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
I'd say my preference is for marksman at L3 only.
Krogen's arguments make sense, but I don't feel that giving them marksman, in itself, automatically makes them a better swordsman than an elvish marshal or champion. You'd need to consider all of their stats together to decide on that.
Krogen's arguments make sense, but I don't feel that giving them marksman, in itself, automatically makes them a better swordsman than an elvish marshal or champion. You'd need to consider all of their stats together to decide on that.
Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
I support that. Also I agree that stats as a whole determine skill level. Just because the Orcish Slayer doesn't deal very much melee damage doesn't mean he is a bad assassin.Celtic_Minstrel wrote: ↑April 3rd, 2019, 12:20 am I'd say my preference is for marksman at L3 only.
Krogen's arguments make sense, but I don't feel that giving them marksman, in itself, automatically makes them a better swordsman than an elvish marshal or champion. You'd need to consider all of their stats together to decide on that.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
In general it would probably be best to consider Marksman in a unit flavor/balancing context rather than an intentional statement of skill. Otherwise the Loyalist's Master Bowman should definitely have the Marksman special too
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
For the record, I totally wouldn't object to the master bowman receiving the special.
Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Here are a summary of all the updated stats of specific units and proposal for some unit designs where it is not clear yet how the final situation gonna look like
Soldier:
Swordsman:
Dune Captain
Spearguard & Spearmaster
Herbalist Line
Cataphrakt
Raider & Marauder
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
I don't think I like setup 2 or 3 regarding the swordsman. I think I'll stick to supporting setup 4, though setup 1 doesn't sound too bad either.
Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
I fully support giving the Spearguard/Spearmaster the shield, this way they become very distinct from any other spearman in the game. Also, it fits their theme of being warden of the city gates or escorts to important people (shieldbashing people who come too close to their protectee).
I also like the idea of giving a second attack with marksman to the Swordsman line, if done well.
It is important for the attack to not be redundant thought. Right now the unit has a blade melee with 2 attacks; I we are going to add another blade melee attack (with marksman) I think we have two options:
-have it be one single strike and more powerful (which I prefer; think of it as a less frustrating, melee Thunderer);
-be it quite less damaging but with more attacks (in that case maybe the weapon should be a dagger ).
The first option would be better to finish off wounded units with high defense, the latter would be only useful to garantee hits on high defense targets (have I already said I prefer the first one?).
I also like the idea of giving a second attack with marksman to the Swordsman line, if done well.
It is important for the attack to not be redundant thought. Right now the unit has a blade melee with 2 attacks; I we are going to add another blade melee attack (with marksman) I think we have two options:
-have it be one single strike and more powerful (which I prefer; think of it as a less frustrating, melee Thunderer);
-be it quite less damaging but with more attacks (in that case maybe the weapon should be a dagger ).
The first option would be better to finish off wounded units with high defense, the latter would be only useful to garantee hits on high defense targets (have I already said I prefer the first one?).
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
For Swordsman, I strongly prefer option 1, due to reasons mentioned by Xalzar.
For Cataphract, I think having a split at lvl3 with such a drastic weapon change is really odd. Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange. Not sure what would be better though.
I'm fine with other changes.
For Cataphract, I think having a split at lvl3 with such a drastic weapon change is really odd. Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange. Not sure what would be better though.
I'm fine with other changes.
Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
I believe Xalzar was supporting option 4, (because he mentioned supporting adding a second attack).
I personally support option 4 because it adds marksman into the line but as a secondary option which means that the unit isn't weighted towards killing elusive units while under powered against normal units. As I may have mentioned before, and as you will see from reading the section about the issues with marksman (in the design flaw section) there are A LOT of reasons not to add in marskman to the earlier levels.
A marksman attack, by nature, will be weaker than a normal attack, but it will have marksman which in many circumstances (50% + defence) will be useful. However, against units who are on 40% defence or units who have chronically poor defence (such as drakes), the marksman special is useless, and therefore the blademaster's attack becomes worse than a normal sword (such as that of the warlord).
By instead adding marksman on a second attack, instead of adding it to the only sword, it gives the player the choice, thereby not nerfing the blademaster against poor defence units while making it OP against elusive units. Adding a nerf to the blademaster really doesn't seem like a good way to make this unit more unique and fun to play.
I agree that having a unique attack is important. I would avoid a single-strike attack for the many aforementioned reasons by which the Piercer was removed from the faction but I think that adding an attack with more strikes and marksman would be a good addition.Xalzar wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 1:40 pm I also like the idea of giving a second attack with marksman to the Swordsman line, if done well.
It is important for the attack to not be redundant thought. Right now the unit has a blade melee with 2 attacks; I we are going to add another blade melee attack (with marksman) I think we have two options:
-have it be one single strike and more powerful (which I prefer; think of it as a less frustrating, melee Thunderer);
-be it quite less damaging but with more attacks (in that case maybe the weapon should be a dagger ).
The first option would be better to finish off wounded units with high defense, the latter would be only useful to guarantee hits on high defense targets (have I already said I prefer the first one?).
I also would propose the marksman is only added to lvl 3, but it does not matter too significantly.
Potentially an alternative to this is that the unit keeps the bow as well (instead of dropping it), but this would mean that the lance and other weapons would be more nerfed.Caladbolg wrote: ↑April 4th, 2019, 9:39 pm For Cataphract, I think having a split at lvl3 with such a drastic weapon change is really odd. Lvl2 unit wielding a bow suggests that some time has been put in honing that skill. Just dropping it completely, and suddenly gaining a spear on lvl3 is strange. Not sure what would be better though.
I'm fine with other changes.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
He clearly support both, (1) and (4) which is what we going for as well.
Merging (1) and (4) seems the most natural decision right now. We are working on the stats and give you an update here to showcase how exactly that is going to look like.
Well there was some sort of training but it does not exceed the lv1 training as it is just about the same strength. If we'd keep the a weak bow to the CTP as well then there is no actual need for 2nd advancement. I'd try to explore more possibilities before dismissing the 2nd sunderer advancement.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Alright, maybe marksman on level 3 and above isn't that bad. And since there is no melee marksman unit in default it could be argued that marksman on melee can mean anything. But on ranged, on 3 unit lines in default that have marksman, it really does look like a statement of skill. Sharpshooter's elvish dexterity and damage point towards that, glider, while it has a different attack he is supposed to be a hunter skilled at hunting moving animals, same for level 3 huntsman. Master Bowman, while skilled, doesn't have the same skills as elves, or the best of the huntsmen, and his bow may simply be better.
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Re: Dunefolk Rework - Changes In Unit Lines & Base Units
Personally I think single-strike makes a lot of sense for a shield bash, and if the unit is well-armoured, the retaliation might not be so bad... but if people would prefer two strikes, I guess that's fine too.