Conquest Minus Ladder

Discussion of all aspects of multiplayer development: unit balancing, map development, server development, and so forth.

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SlowThinker
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Joined: November 28th, 2008, 6:18 pm

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder (preparatory works)

Post by SlowThinker »

Conscience, DarkHorse:
DarkHorse's attachment in his previous post has been submitted to the ladder (see the game '2013-12-25 16:36:19'), but the ladder site gzipped it again, although it had the .gz extension already (unless DarkHorse deleted the extension by error). Therefore the save from the ladder site cannot be replayed directly.

The DarkHorse's attachment is a replay only, therefore I attached my full save of that game here:
Blop-DarkHorse_ladder.gz
(341.09 KiB) Downloaded 222 times
------------------------------------------
iceiceice:
Why I explained "why one plays the ladder": I wanted to stress the thrill over the ranking, and 'the game incl. the thrill' over 'the win'. Also in relation to possible cheating...
I thought 'man' was gender-neutral in english? (but I am faaar away from a native english speaker)
I will add some examples of cheating.
A prosecution of cheating would not be so easy - there are very effective ways of cheating that cannot be proven, like exploring the fog with another Wesnoth client.
Yes, it should be mentioned that an account might be terminated (imagine we get 1000 spam-accounts per day). I would prefer a cheater would not be kicked but his name would be stressed in the ladder so that others could laugh at him :) : but it would require some coding ...
You know, personally I prefer a friendly and less serious philosophy of the ladder ... but other C- players should say which style they do prefer ...
I don't expect cheating also because we are a small group of sensible players, and we know one another. If we get problems with cheaters then I will be happy - that will signify we are growing a lot :D

------------------------------------------
more thoughts:
Do we ever need any referee? If the ladder 'philosophy' is friendly, then we can accept only games whose result is accepted by both players. (we can establish referees if we get too many disputed games later)
In case of any dispute we can offer no judgment but an advice. Then maybe we should ask for a Conquest Minus section at Wesnoth ladder forums:
http://laddercouncil.proboards.com/index.cgi
Or is anyone willing to run our own forum?
Last edited by SlowThinker on January 27th, 2014, 2:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Blop
Posts: 76
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Re: Conquest Minus Ladder (preparatory works)

Post by Blop »

First to default settings for New Age Parsaganta:
I recommend a 3v3 set like "abbaba" with 28-30 distance. Obviously there are many possibilities, 1v1 with 40+ distance is also nice.


I agree with SlowThinker about the ladder philosophy. Maybe you should use "person" instead?
I also don't think that referees are necessary at this point, but we never know how big or wide spread this ladder will become.
DarkHorse
Posts: 21
Joined: May 20th, 2013, 2:46 pm

why we play ladder..

Post by DarkHorse »

the main benefit of the ladder is it encourages us to play a wider range of opponents. i look forward to playing iceiceice, a.k.a ??
SlowThinker
Posts: 876
Joined: November 28th, 2008, 6:18 pm

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder (preparatory works)

Post by SlowThinker »

the original faq + my faq proposition v0.2 + my faq proposition v0.4:
v0.2:
I added the FAQ section and also reworked the previous texts a lot.
v0.3:
it is on the site now: http://ladder.alainlauzon.com/faq.php
v0.4:
I edited some parts and added the following (search for texts below):
"play a Premade Game"
"A-B-B-A"
"General hints"
"players need to strive hard in order to avoid it"
v0.5:
rewritten parts:
"Why and how to save"
"It is a turn of the player who disconnected"
v0.6:
Most important changes: Search for this text:
'What to do if one player disconnects' - it has been rebuilt completely
'Cheating?' - it has been rebuilt. (I start to agree with iceiceice rather than with mmmax. Doubts should be clarified.)
'play two Mirror Games' - it has been moved to the C- thread and rebuilt
'play a Premade Game' - the linked text has been rebuilt
'The saves must be compressed by the gzip compression method'

Please comment the faq and especially answer my questions (they are red).

All versions that are attached here don't reflect the comments after this post.
Attachments
Conquest Minus Ladder.zip
(88.04 KiB) Downloaded 222 times
Last edited by SlowThinker on January 27th, 2014, 2:23 am, edited 5 times in total.
mmmax
Posts: 10
Joined: December 23rd, 2013, 6:06 pm

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by mmmax »

Philosophy

Thanks for this slow, i like thrills and FUN, i may change my game start to gl ht-have a thrill!!!
i wouldnt bother even telling someone how to cheat, please take that part out

Ladder and Ranking

rated-you have a rating, played at least one ladder game, but you may or may not be in the rankings, only if you meet the ranking criteria(rated and played in 60 days).
ranked-your are rated and meet the ranking criteria(played in 60 days) I think we should make this a larger time frame, at least initially we dont have a lot of people in the ladder system. 180 days or even 365 would be good, 90 is still sort of a short time period.
in the ladder-rated, ranked and greater than 1000. I think this number should be smaller, we want as many people listed as possible. Looking at the wesnoth ladder top score is around 2400 so braketing 1500 +- 900. So 600 would be good, heck 100 might be better for the start-up of the ladder

Rules and Hints
Before game start
2)mmm slighty confusing. maybe try " When playing a ladder game you should use the nickname you registared with on the Conquest Minus Ladder Site. If this is not possible then use a nickname with an extension, e.g. mynickname_2 or mynickname_tmp. " may be good place to say something about Wesnoth registared nickname
3) tweak it a little bit

All games are 1 player vs 1 player. You're allowed to play however many games you want, with whoever is participating in the ladder and wants to compete with you. To find an opponent for a ladder game you'd have to contact people in the ladder or create (ladder) games on the offical server. You can find players by using the ladder in-game friends list, contacting them via some kind of instant messenger or also email challange them via their profile.

4) maybe we can put the current version number of C- on the home page of the ladder website?

5) do we always need the full website name?

Thank you SlowThinker for starting the new FAQ, more comments to come,
mmmax
SlowThinker
Posts: 876
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Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by SlowThinker »

Answer to mmmax
cheating:
I added it because I agreed with iceiceice: there should be some explanation what is considered to be cheating.

Also I thought people may be cheating because of "I found this nice way of cheating. I am so smart. I must try it!" This is why I think it is good to explain cheating in advance. On the other hand ... the sentence in the faq
"Cheating in Wesnoth and in Conquest Minus would be very easy."
tries to filter that reason ("I am so smart") for cheating already ...

Summary: I am quite neutral with this point. More people should post their opinions...

Ladder Rating & Ranking
mmmax wrote:rated-you have a rating, played at least one ladder game ...
ranked- ...
in the ladder-rated...
My point is these definitions are not reflected on the ladder site: On the site there are only two lists: the list of all players (http://ladder.alainlauzon.com/players.php), that includes even players that played no game and their 'rating' is 1500, and the ladder (http://ladder.alainlauzon.com/ladder.php).
So I think these definitions only confuse people.

Rules and Hints / Before game start
2) Just a note: I want that people perceive there are two nicks neded, one for the ladder website and the other one for the MP server.
But I will accept any suggestion as my english is terrible.

3) how to tweak? You just copied the original text.

4) Why? I think the players will always update by the Wesnoth's Main Menu / Add-ons.
I think I should add this:
"you need to have downloaded the current stable version of Battle for Wesnoth, and the Wesnoth add-on Conquest Minus (It may be downloaded by choosing "Add-ons" in the main Wesnoth menu.)"

5) I think so. It is a very important advertisement.

_____________________________________
I will comment some of your ideas later, when I will post a list of my ideas / wishes.
I added faq v0.5
(see the attachment above)

The most important point is I edited this text:
old version:
new version:
What to do if one player disconnects:
The player who disconnected should save the game (if possible).
The player who stayed becomes the hosting player. There are two possibilities:
  • It is a turn of the player who stayed:
    Then things are easy: The player who stayed can take control of side(s) of his opponent, then save and then reload the game in the multiplayer lobby.
  • It is a turn of the player who disconnected:
    Then things are complicated: the problem is the Wesnoth client will usually want to show you the position of your opponent: it will do it just after you pass the control of side(s) of your opponent to a substitute (to yourself or an observer). And you cannot save the game before you pass the side control to a substitute.
    What to do? There are 3 different ways:
    1. The player who stayed in the game saves the game solo:
      The player who stayed in the game gets a menu that asks him who shall get the control of the disconnected side.
      First he needs to take control of all opponent's sides (he shall choose "Replace by local player") except the last one. So for example if the game is 4 vs 4 then he hits "Replace by local player" three times, and only highlits "Replace by local player" for the 4th side, but doesn't hit 'enter'.

      Up to this point everything is safe: The Wesnoth client reveals no map of the opponent.
      But next the client will reveal the map, and so the player needs to ignore the screen and concentrace to his keyboard only:

      The player needs to do this sequence on his keyboard:
      2x enter, (short pause), enter, ctrl-s, 3x enter, (short pause), esc, enter
      Now the player can look at his screen again: The sequence saved the game and quit, and so the player is in the multiplayer lobby.

      Notes about the sequence:
      Keys that are not interleaved by '(short pause)' can be hit very fast.
      The length of the (short pause) depends on how fast is your system. Several seconds should suffice, but best if you test it yourself:
      1st pause is needed so that the Wesnoth client can write all messages with "PlayerXYZ undroids side X"
      2nd pause is needed so that the client can save the game

      Details about the sequence:
      enter: confirms "Replace with local player"
      enter: accepts the message "it is now humanX's turn" (it is not always shown, but hit enter anyway)
      pause: the Wesnoth client needs time to write all messages with "PlayerXYZ undroids side X"
      enter: closes Objectives (it is not always shown, but hit enter anyway)
      ctrl-S: invokes the 'Save Game' dialog
      enter: confirms the save
      enter: confirms the pop-up window "Overwrite? ... The save already exists." (it is not always shown, but hit enter anyway)
      enter: accepts the message "The game has been saved"
      pause: the Wesnoth client needs time to save the game
      esc: invokes the pop-up window "Do you really want to quit?"
      enter: confirms the quit
    2. Both players cooperate:
      The player who stayed in the game gets a menu that asks him who shall get the control of the disconnected side. The player should do nothing and wait until the diconnected player contacts him by means agreed before the game started (by e-mail, IM ...; unfortunately he cannot whisper at this moment, unless he starts another Wesnoth client.).
      The disconnected player should save at the moment he disconnected: this is possible unless his computer crashed. Then he should inform the other player (by e-mail, IM ...) that he has the save, and so the other player can end the game without trying to save it. Then the disconnected player can reload the game in the multiplayer lobby.

      If the disconnected player has no save then he can return to the running game, but he needs to put any other (cover-)window over Wesnoth's window, so that only the upper status bar is visible. The status bar shows the current turn number and player's flag, and so it allows to determine the moment when the replay ends and the cover-window may be removed.
    3. There is an observer in the game
      If there is an observer in the game then the hosting player can pass the control of the disconnected side(s) to the observer provisionaly, then he can save and then reload the game in the multiplayer lobby.
      But in some situations this way may reveal the map, and so it is not recommended, unless you study this bug description: In MP a player can get the sight of the other team
If the player who disconnected doesn't return then the remaining player shall save (somehow, see possible problems above) and the game can be continued later.
Please tell me whether I am correct (maybe there is a simpler way how to manage some situations) and whether the text is understable.
I added faq v0.6
(see the attachment above)
Last edited by SlowThinker on January 27th, 2014, 2:24 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Blop
Posts: 76
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Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by Blop »

The text is very understable. :)
SlowThinker
Posts: 876
Joined: November 28th, 2008, 6:18 pm

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by SlowThinker »

News 1:
Blop, mmmax and me did run some tests, and the result is I have posted a new version of "What to do if one player disconnects" in my previous post.

________________________
News 2:

- I added faq v0.6 (see the attachment above)

- now the ladder site uses a software from 2009, which includes bugs and misses some features. Conscience plans to try a newer version from 2013: http://sourceforge.net/p/gamingladder/s ... ree/trunk/
Therefore i postponed my plan to post a to-do list / wishlist here.
enclave
Posts: 936
Joined: December 15th, 2007, 8:52 am

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by enclave »

hello
some observations and ideas, dont know where else to put them, so here they go

all ideas today about reporting a win..
1) it does not have a symbol count in the comment (or does it? not 100% sure as my mozilla sometimes give me some lags..).. so when I commented on my game, the end was just removed.. and my text is there incomplete. and I guess nobody even knows the limit of words/symbols.. so better have one.
2) When reporting a game it could have a drop down menus of map played and 1v1/2v2/3v3/etc..
optional.. so if you chose map and vs.. it could just appear bold in comment? to avoid complicated coding.. should not be too hard.. the hardest part would be copy/paste the list of maps i guess.. including the word count limit.. could also have a p1p4(enclave) vs p2p3(blablabla)... but thats really not important at all :D

Thank you!

Oh another idea.. but nothing to do with ladder, almost.. Ladder players could sometimes get together and host ffa games or something to attract new players to conquest and potentially to ladder.. well thats it now. Ideas run out and i better go away before new ones come to my mind.

Thanks!
abhijit
Posts: 113
Joined: October 4th, 2011, 1:27 am
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Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by abhijit »

Hi,
The account activation page doesn't give the correct link for the ladder website. Kindly change it from ladder.subversiva.org to ladder.alainlauzon.com.

Thx
Winner of The Alternate Frontier
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Blop
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Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by Blop »

I just now posted a replay with instructions for the early game.
It can be found here: http://forums.wesnoth.org/viewtopic.php ... 10#p566910
sylph
Posts: 23
Joined: October 4th, 2013, 11:37 am

Re: Conquest Minus Ladder

Post by sylph »

2) When reporting a game it could have a drop down menus of map played and 1v1/2v2/3v3/etc..
optional.. so if you chose map and vs.. it could just appear bold in comment? to avoid complicated coding.. should not be too hard.. the hardest part would be copy/paste the list of maps i guess.. including the word count limit.. could also have a p1p4(enclave) vs p2p3(blablabla)... but thats really not important at all :D

On the front end, you could create a drop down menu of the maps with a single <select>maps</select> of html. However, a good web developer would probably use lists and css and make the webpage look pretty. On the back end, you would need to store the map played varible in PHP and spit it out in bold on the comment. However, the bolded text needs to be stored somehow (so other users can see it). That means that the database needs to record which game you selected. So, you should probably create a new column (foreign key) in some sort of games_played table. You would also need a new table: a map table with a code(primary key) and a few columns like map_name, map_category(1v2, 2v2, 3v3) and such. By then, you might as well write PHP to generate a seperate sub-rating for each type of map and/or even each map. However, altering the database scheme (table structure) on the back-end is something that should be done in a development enviornment, test thuroghly, and then tested some more.
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