Wolf Riders lack something
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something
A lot of players repeat this sentence, but not many of them can actually explain how it really works.Reepurr wrote:Also, Units Are NOT Balanced Against Units. Factions ARE Balanced Against Factions.
What player should notice is not the so-so wolf rider performance against other scout units BUT the following wolf rider strong points:
1)it has good move type & good defence for a scout (aside from 50% on vill, it's the infrantry type defence)
2)it has 3 attacks when the main Northeners melee units have only 2 (grunt, troll)
3)it require low amount of experience to level up (strong, res 6-3, 38hp needs only 21 xp points, intelligent one - only 17!)
4)when levelled up, it can either bring quite potent melee fire damage & slowing ranged attack OR 4 decent melee attacks
When you'll sum it all up you can see that wolf rider isn't meant to combat actively other scout units - it's actually meant to grab terrain, ZoC, take some damage if necessary and finish off the weakened enemy units - both level ups are easier to obtain than on any other orcish lvl 1 unit and both of them are worth the wolf rider 17gp price.
You have to remember that price is also affected by the level up possibilities, amount of XP necessary to level up the unit and it's usefulness to the faction. Wolf rider 3 attacks is a partial remedy to the "2 hit trauma" that Northeners suffer ( 0/2 or 1/2 hits from trolls and grunts in situations when you need 1/2 or you've a decent chance for 2/2). More or less Goblin Knight gives you 4 decent attacks during the night which can negate the "2 hit trauma" effect and Goblin Pillager can weaken the "hard hitting" units like horseman, HI, wose or make the hunt of escaping opponent easier for Northeners via slowing the enemy units, allowing to swarm them/kill them faster etc.
Considering all of this, I don't think that 17gp is a lot for a unit that opens so much possibilities to this faction.
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.
Re: Wolf Riders lack something
1) I totally disagreee. Half of the scouts (gryphon, ghosts, gliders) fly. THIS is good movement, free to roam above forests, hills, village and swamps. Being a ground unit, he is on the lower tier of the spectrum. Wolf Riders are faster on hills, Elvish Scouts are faster on forest BUT they also move 8, instead of Wolf Rider 7.Faello wrote: 1)it has good move type & good defence for a scout (aside from 50% on vill, it's the infrantry type defence)
2)it has 3 attacks when the main Northeners melee units have only 2 (grunt, troll)
3)it require low amount of experience to level up (strong, res 6-3, 38hp needs only 21 xp points, intelligent one - only 17!)
4)when levelled up, it can either bring quite potent melee fire damage & slowing ranged attack OR 4 decent melee attacks
The only Scout Wolf outruns are Cavaliers.
About the defense... I may be missing something, but Gryphons / Ghosts / Bats have 50% everywhere, with Gryphons reaching 60% on mountains.
2) 3 attacks, yes. But they do low damage. The lack a ranged attack too, risking sometimes heavy retaliation.
3) Agree with it. It's nice when it happens... but I still start with the unupgraded version. I need a good scout at the start of the match too, not on the 10th turn.
4) I do love their evolution. I wish Orcs had a baseline snare unit.
Edit - I took out bats because I admit their defense matter little when they are paper-thin.
Re: Wolf Riders lack something
Not to mention that bats have actually 60% everywhere except not swamp or water villages, are level 0 and are overall super cheap (not having an upkeep actually means saving 1g from their cost per turn of having them).Beholder wrote:About the defense... I may be missing something, but Gryphons / Ghosts / Bats have 50% everywhere, with Gryphons reaching 60% on mountains.
Also elvish scout seems to have pretty good defenses - 60% forests and mountains, 50 % hills, 40 % villages and flat. Villages aside (no scouts have really good defense on villages, 50 % is max by ghost and gryphon - well, footpad got 70%, but he's kind of special), isn't that actually a bit better than infantry defenses? Forests are pretty common...
So I don't get your point with defenses either.
Re: Wolf Riders lack something
Wolf Rider basic speed is 8 which is decent. It's 9 when it's quick so actually it can outrun ghost, cavalry (this is easy since cavalry can't move through the mountains and has inferior move type). Usually it's enough to reach all the enemy units you need to reach.Beholder wrote: 1) I totally disagreee. Half of the scouts (gryphon, ghosts, gliders) fly. THIS is good movement, free to roam above forests, hills, village and swamps. Being a ground unit, he is on the lower tier of the spectrum. Wolf Riders are faster on hills, Elvish Scouts are faster on forest BUT they also move 8, instead of Wolf Rider 7.
The only Scout Wolf outruns are Cavaliers.
About the defense... I may be missing something, but Gryphons / Ghosts / Bats have 50% everywhere, with Gryphons reaching 60% on mountains.
2) 3 attacks, yes. But they do low damage. The lack a ranged attack too, risking sometimes heavy retaliation.
Yes, wolf rider damage isn't exceptional, but as I said, it's not meant to be the damage dealer at lvl1, it's meant to finish off the already wounded units.
Regarding scout to scout comparision - I don't really see a point to compare the 24gp gryphon to 17gp wolf. It's the same thing with 20gp ghost or 13gp bat...
Actually only unit that hurts my eyes is cavalry in Northeners vs Loyalits matchups, since it's just too powerful vs the northies units, but - hopefully - it's influence in this matchup will get "nerfed" someday.
Aside from that, I really don't see a problem.
The yellow jester does not play
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.
but gently pulls the strings
and smiles as the puppets dance
in the court of the Crimson King.
Re: Wolf Riders lack something
*coughs*
Ghosts have 50% everywhere, that's true. But they move slowly over water, like most other things. And thanks to low HP, fire/arcane can obliterate them.
Bats...one word for you: Feral.
Gryphons have 60% in mountains and an awesome attack, as well as flight with a lot of MP, but they cost 24 gold . That's two orcish grunts right there.
Elvish Scouts are fast but, as usual, expensive. They have low attack power in both melee and ranged - 4-3 and 6-2, isn't it? - which makes them even worse than a Wolf Rider, especially given they're neutral and can never get a damage buff whereas a wolf can. Scouts are pierce weak and practically their only impressive advantage is their speed through forest.
Drake Gliders have 40% rather than 50% everywhere. They used to have 30 but...oh well.
Wolves have 40% on flat, but can achieve 50% quite easily. They need only 1MP through hills, which is just as good as an Elvish Scout through forest (albeit with lower defence). Unlike plenty of other non-flying units, they only need 2MP through mountains, though they have 60% there and, I think, in castles. Some units can't even reach the mountains! Wolves also do 5-3 normally, 6-3 at night, making them good at sneaking round enemy lines and killing the weak. With such low XP needed to level, that's certainly worth it for a wolf.
Ghosts have 50% everywhere, that's true. But they move slowly over water, like most other things. And thanks to low HP, fire/arcane can obliterate them.
Bats...one word for you: Feral.
Gryphons have 60% in mountains and an awesome attack, as well as flight with a lot of MP, but they cost 24 gold . That's two orcish grunts right there.
Elvish Scouts are fast but, as usual, expensive. They have low attack power in both melee and ranged - 4-3 and 6-2, isn't it? - which makes them even worse than a Wolf Rider, especially given they're neutral and can never get a damage buff whereas a wolf can. Scouts are pierce weak and practically their only impressive advantage is their speed through forest.
Drake Gliders have 40% rather than 50% everywhere. They used to have 30 but...oh well.
Wolves have 40% on flat, but can achieve 50% quite easily. They need only 1MP through hills, which is just as good as an Elvish Scout through forest (albeit with lower defence). Unlike plenty of other non-flying units, they only need 2MP through mountains, though they have 60% there and, I think, in castles. Some units can't even reach the mountains! Wolves also do 5-3 normally, 6-3 at night, making them good at sneaking round enemy lines and killing the weak. With such low XP needed to level, that's certainly worth it for a wolf.
"What do you mean, "a dwarvish dragonguard with marksman is overpowered"?"
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something
The ghost is not the Undead's primary scout. The bat is. And while cheap over a long period of time due to zero upkeep, the bat is very expensive for its combat potential. Also, as Faello pointed out, you got the move speeds wrong. Elvish scouts are base 9, wolves are base 8. Ghosts are 7, can't get quick, and are slow over water, which is one of the primary advantages of a flying scout, usually.Beholder wrote:Half of the scouts (gryphon, ghosts, gliders) fly. THIS is good movement, free to roam above forests, hills, village and swamps. Being a ground unit, he is on the lower tier of the spectrum. Wolf Riders are faster on hills, Elvish Scouts are faster on forest BUT they also move 8, instead of Wolf Rider 7.