Wolf Riders lack something

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Beholder
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Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Beholder »

Why this unit lacks so much? It have no special ability, it's damage is low and lack a ranged attack.

They cost a lot, and give back little. I dread the idea of needing to capture a far away village with Orcs because, beside him taking long to get there, it have little chance of defeating other races scouts in both speed and fighting. Elvish Scouts and Drake Gliders both have ranged attacks which can weaken him on their turn without retaliation. Cavaliers have blade resistance and Ghost can leech their life back, attacking one is a gamble. Their best chance is against Gryphons at night which have more HP, more damage and more speed.. and can fly away if threatened.

An extra note before talking about attacking at night.. it goes both ways and only means I will be very, very weak at the day.

Ignoring combat, they don't fly, they can't freely cross forest / water / swamp / mountains. They take longer to reach to where they are needed and are bad at holding villages. If hurt, they can't escape others runners unless you put other unit in between.

My bottom point is.. if I see a juicy village far away, I can capture it with, say, a Glider and I know I can safely run if the enemy scouts come attack me. If I am using a Wolf Rider, he will probably be surrounded before reaching the village.

And it costs 17 gold.
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Reepurr
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Reepurr »

Wolf Riders get bonuses on terrain as if they're normal units. They also have 1MP cost on hills and 2MP cost on mountains, which makes them much better than cavs there. As one of the few scouts that can get 60% defence in more than just mountains*, a lucky wolf is much better at holding the fort against enemies.

Also, Units Are NOT Balanced Against Units. Factions ARE Balanced Against Factions.

* I'm referring to gryphons.


Not to mention that the general theme of Northerners is (slightly) cheap but also more than slightly weak.
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Sapient
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Sapient »

Reepurr wrote: Also, Units Are NOT Balanced Against Units. Factions ARE Balanced Against Factions.

That is true in general, but scouts I believe are an exception. Scouts are balanced against scouts.

As for the balance discussion, I am moving this to a more appropriate forum.
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Velensk
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Velensk »

I agree that wolf riders haven't shined quite as much since they lost their 60% village defense (Not that I think they should get that back).

I don't think wolves are that much easier to trap than gilders in the way you seem to be saying.

They certainly don't contribute as much to their faction as the cavalrymen despite equal costs but that probably isn't a fair comparison. They do get better than average scout terrain defenses but they don't get better terrain defenses than standard infantry (and even with their 'better than average defenses' they don't really beat elvish scouts who get an extra movement and a decent ranged attack).

I would think they could stand some slight improvement without hurting balance much but I still use them as they are, sometimes even after the initial village grab.
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Horus2
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Horus2 »

Sapient wrote:
Reepurr wrote: Also, Units Are NOT Balanced Against Units. Factions ARE Balanced Against Factions.

That is true in general, but scouts I believe are an exception. Scouts are balanced against scouts.

As for the balance discussion, I am moving this to a more appropriate forum.
Cavalryman = 17 gold
Wolf Rider = 17 gold

Are they equally good? No way.

Cavalryman does more damage to a wolf than a strong wolf to a cavalryman... at night.
Northeners has other pros than village grabbing, but until scouts are not balanced to scouts, chances on large maps like Cynsaun Battlefield won't be 50-50%.
monochromatic
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by monochromatic »

Perhaps just reducing the cost to 16 gold or 15 gold? Because even if Wolf Riders aren't very good, Goblin Pillagers are extremely difficult to kill especially for Undead and even Loyalists. Elvish Riders suck, and Dragoons and Master Gryphons aren't anything special. Only Hurricanes get a significant defense boost and Ghosts become beasts. Even then, Gliders and Ghosts are not powerhouses.
Beholder
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Beholder »

Orcs have this "weak but cheap" theme but the Wolf cost the same of Cavalier, which is awesome, and more than Glider, which is extra awesome with flying and marksman fire.

Gliders, Gryphons and Ghost have base 50% evasion no matter the terrain. Cavalier are just sturdy and can tank the damage. Elvish Scouts aren't stellar but at least they move 9 so, at least, they can fulfill their scouting duties and escape, even on ground.

On the "Factions are balanced against factions" argument. Lots of people perceive Orcs as inferior (the veracity of this I will let to another thread, but I agree) given their the army is slow, lack healing, magic and flexibility. So why punish it further with expensive scouts who doesn't do anything special?

The only answer I see is "Grunts are cheap, Whelps are cheap, let's even it out with expensive, but necessary scouts ". Given you need to build scouts you end up with an army with average cost, but which is still weak.
Velensk
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Velensk »

Gliders are awesome? First time I've ever heard that one. And it's 40% everywhere not 50%.

I don't think that the northerners are inferior (though I'll admit that I prefer not to play them).

I don't really see any reason for wolves to cost more than gliders. The fact that they hold villages better and do more damage is canceled out by the things mentioned.
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Beholder
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Beholder »

Gliders are one of the cheapest Scouts, and fly. I pay 24 for a Gryphon, 20 for a Ghost, 18 for a Elvish Scout and 17 for Wolf Riders / Cavalier.

Since it flies, they can easily grab most villages and stay there until the last second, flying over water, forests and mountains when the situation is dangerous. The enemy will need at least 2 troops to take me out of there given the village regeneration, 2 units which are not on the main front, and I can easily fly for another nearby village if I fear death.

Gliders are the sole reason I can beat 3v1 games versus the AI.
Orran
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Orran »

Perhaps the northerners are weak discussion is for another thread? Interesting topic though, I think they're a great faction.

Concerning wolf riders, yes they are very weak, but if you can level them up (21 or 17 xp on 70%) they have 2 very good advancement options. Goblin knights are fast tanks with high damage potential, and pillagers gain a fire attack and a slowing attack, both invaluable to orcs.
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Zaroth
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Zaroth »

I support the idea of of reducing cost of the wolf riders to 16g (15g could be an overkill since the resistances also play a role). Especially if the all-powerful cavalry stays as it is now and won't be nerfed, the current price is a bit unreasonable.

But... It won't be changed, because we need "convincing replays evidence", right? :augh:
Caphriel
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Caphriel »

Unless you want game balance to be determined by popular opinion, then yes, you need evidence. And popular opinion is notoriously bad at determining game balance. I personally think a 1-gold price reduction wouldn't be unreasonable, but I haven't explored all the implications yet. For instance, depending on the map and initial recruit, saving two gold on wolves might (might. I haven't done the math) let the Northerner recruit an extra grunt a turn sooner, significantly increasing the power of a rush.
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Zaroth
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Zaroth »

Caphriel wrote:Unless you want game balance to be determined by popular opinion, then yes, you need evidence. And popular opinion is notoriously bad at determining game balance.
I'm completely fine with providing evidence, just collecting replays for the case that Wolf riders should cost 1 gp less seems... obnoxious and a bit pointless to me.
Math-evidence (as in your post, calculating whether additional unit can't be afforded too early) in this case makes much more sense IMHO.
Caphriel
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Caphriel »

But how can you know if it works without testing? I'm not being facetious here. Current default era balance has been thoroughly tested. Any proposed balance change has to demonstrably improve the game in some way. It may be true that there would mathematically be very little effect (this seems likely, because Northerners tend not to recruit a lot of wolf riders), but very little effect is not the same as an improvement. "Different" doesn't mean "better."

Additionally, requiring replays acts as a sort of gate to filter spurious and less serious suggestions. On the other hand, Sapient, at least, is reading this thread.
Beholder
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Re: Wolf Riders lack something

Post by Beholder »

What kind of replay should I provide? Because me losing with Orcs kinda defeat the point.

If someone is a fervent Orc defender, I am in for some games. :)
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