Loyalist Javelineer Question

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Angry Andersen
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Loyalist Javelineer Question

Post by Angry Andersen »

This has maybe been discussed before, but I didn't find it anywhere (sorry if I restart an old discussion).

Is there any reason for not having a lvl3 version of the loyalist Javelineer? I find the Pikeman pretty cool as a melee unit which has at least a weak ranged attack, preventing opponents from getting entirely free ranged attacks on him.

Unfortunately, when levelling, both branches that allow for advancement up to lvl3 loose this property. There still is a nice lvl2 version, the Javelineer, but in campaigns being able to get to lvl3 is worth a lot, so I usually don't choose him.

The same thing happens in other unit lines too, e.g. Lancers, Goblin Pillagers, but I see these more as specialised branches, that go in a different direction than the lvl1 unit. With the Pikeman-line it's just the opposite: It's not possible to get a lvl3 version of the unit originally recruited, which I find a bit odd.
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Post by Becephalus »

A lot of people find it odd, but it works fine as is. If someone came up with some amazing art and unit concepts for the lvl 3 jav perhaps it would be included, but that would take a lot of time. The art for the game has gotten quite time intensive and sophisticated.

Also more units for the sake of more units is bad. I am personally of the opinion that wesnoth needs fewer units not more. And since this is the MP forum I will point out you never see a lvl 3 in MP anyway so who cares.
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Post by PingPangQui »

Just to add for campaigns: Who would advance units to a pikeman if he could get a level 3 Javelineer. (Same applies to lancers btw.)
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TL
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Post by TL »

Well, halbardiers do get a blade attack, which is something L3 javelineers probably would never get. I agree, though--I prefer javelineers over swordsmen or pikemen, so the lack of an L3 upgrade is what balances it out for me.
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Post by zookeeper »

Obviously, if a lvl3 advancement is added for a lvl2 unit, that lvl2 unit would out of necessity in most cases get nerfed a little bit; this much can IMO be assumed without anyone needing to specifically mention it, right? So you can't argue that adding a lvl3 javelineer would overpower the javelineer branch or make it considerably more preferable than the others.
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Post by Noyga »

zookeeper wrote:Obviously, if a lvl3 advancement is added for a lvl2 unit, that lvl2 unit would out of necessity in most cases get nerfed a little bit; this much can IMO be assumed without anyone needing to specifically mention it, right? So you can't argue that adding a lvl3 javelineer would overpower the javelineer branch or make it considerably more preferable than the others.
Not necessarily, it depends, on the unit...
The problem is also to design (name, background, graphics) a unit that looks natural, distinct enough while it is an evolution of the previous level...
In this particular case i find the good name+background part is probably the most difficult.

Even without L3 advancement, the Javeliner is quite nice as it is : unlinke the two others advancement it has a (quite nice) and still a nice melle attack.
So i feel the it doesn't really need a L3 advancement.

But if someone design (by this, i mean balanced stats + name + background + graphics + ..) a good L3 advancement for it, sure, why not ? But i feel this would be a hard job, to me, for the moment it's a waste of time...

Sure units that don't advance furter than L2 are a little boring in long campaigns, but if it's only for one unit type among a lot of other, i don't see it as a problem.
For me, a wesnoth game is typically about building an army rather than advancing your units (through you're not limited to this way).
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Post by Shadow »

Am I the only one who likes the lv2s. I think they add flair this way. :?
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Post by zookeeper »

Shadow wrote:Am I the only one who likes the lv2s. I think they add flair this way. :?
We're talking about lvl3's. And no, I'm not nitpicking.
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Post by Shadow »

I do the same and I'm nitpicking.

It is nice to have a short route to a powerfull unit with the drawback that he doesn't get stronger.
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Post by krotop »

Becephalus wrote:And since this is the MP forum I will point out you never see a lvl 3 in MP anyway so who cares.
There are others branchs than X Vs Y in MP that are growing in popularity like Survivals or Roleplay. For these games, not being able to advance to lvl3 is not pointless and remain MP-games.
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Post by nightcrawler »

Shadow, I also like the L2-only lines. The javelineer just plugged up a RIPLIB hole, and the guy made some great art, so in it went. I suppose there's nothing preventing a L3 in principle, since I don't think restricting it to L2 was too vital a part of the original agreement.
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Post by Shadow »

Well I just like it wouldn't mind if he gets a lv 3 (as if my opinion countsImage) but I also wouldn't mind if he stays the same.

If someone makes some good art why not?
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Post by Becephalus »

waits for magical art fairy.

see no magical art fairy.

topic closed.
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Post by Shadow »

Becephalus wrote:waits for magical art fairy.

see no magical art fairy.

topic closed.
The art fairy won't appear if it is not sure that the this crap even will be added aside from the workload doing the animations.
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Post by TL »

The magical art fairy might not be around, but the crappy hackjob gnome is here!

Not exactly mainline quality but I like the L2/L3 difference in mainline anyhow. If people want it for UMC scenarios though I could through in some crappy hackjob animations.
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