What's a Goblin?

[Soliton]

Here's a replay that illustrates some of the points mentioned in this thread.

[Zhukov]

Here's a replay that illustrates some of the points mentioned in this thread.

Most informative. That's what I needed to see.

Thanks.

[Boucman]

A point I havn't seen mentionned yet aboug goblins : Leadership


Goblins level quickly in a lvl1 unit with leadership, which can then be applied to other lvl0 unit, making them much more potent. If you faction has a lvl2 leader too, the cheap goblins becomes really deadly... just keep your leaders safe and replace the little buggers.

[Becephalus]

In the first tourney game against DK 2 goblin perhaps won the game for him when his initial assault was unlucky. While they don't have ZOC over nearby hexes, they do have ZOC over the hex they are in. This prevented me from getting around behind him, and if they had been one grunt I probably would have been able to. I think they are ok, but thats about it, but this could be said for a few units. You definitely need about 4 lvl 1s for each one though.

[Jetrel]

Two words:
Shadow Cost

A goblin costs 8 gold, and only 8 gold unless he levels.

An orcish grunt actually costs about 24 gold, because it's 13 + the duration of time he's out there (which we can make a really gross guess of about 10 turns or so - varies radically per map, but 10 is not unusual. If the grunt levels, then he costs even more.



There's also three other major benefits to the spearman:
- 3, rather than 2 attacks (and it's almost as strong in dealing them as the wolf rider). This is often the difference between hitting and missing.
- Pierce damage on melee. Having the ability to deploy melee units of either blade or pierce is superior to being limited to one; goblins are generally a much better choice to attack cavalry and drakes with (though there are, of course, exceptions, like where a drake can get a 1-hit-kill from a grunt).
- it's level-0, and gives very, very little XP to opponents when it's defending. It's often much easier to milk grunts for XP than it is to milk goblins for it.


Less significant, but still there is:
- its ranged attack, which discourages certain "sliverOwns" tactics by the enemy (ex. an enemy shaman with 2hp and needing only 4xp to level trying to do so)
- its ranged attack, which allows the little goblins to wear down certain enemies (like grunts) without retaliation, and also allows them to milk xp without giving it.
- leadership, which makes them deal a -lot- more damage in certain cases (night vs. drakes, for one).

[Doc Paterson]

goblins are generally a much better choice to attack cavalry and drakes with

I've never seen a goblin-heavy Northerner beat a good Drake player, though I've seen a lot of people try and fail. In my opinion, the "get many goblins against Drakes" strategy is one of the most common mistakes that mid level players make.

If you have a replay showing otherwise, I'm sure a lot of us here would like to see it.

[PingPangQui]

If you have a replay showing otherwise, I'm sure a lot of us here would like to see it.

I unfortunately don't have it anymore - but a combo of gobos, some trolls as shields and quite some nagas can do the job - at least on blitz. (Ok that's actually not a pure gobo game, but a naga / gobo combo - but hey).

[Doc Paterson]

If you have a replay showing otherwise, I'm sure a lot of us here would like to see it.

I unfortunately don't have it anymore - but a combo of gobos, some trolls as shields and quite some nagas can do the job - at least on blitz. (Ok that's actually not a pure gobo game, but a naga / gobo combo - but hey).

I don't think that any part of that combination is particularly good against Drakes. Sure it can work, but I've never seen it against a clearly good player.

If you can't find your replay, go forth and make a new one.

[Jetrel]

goblins are generally a much better choice to attack cavalry and drakes with

I've never seen a goblin-heavy Northerner beat a good Drake player, though I've seen a lot of people try and fail. In my opinion, the "get many goblins against Drakes" strategy is one of the most common mistakes that mid level players make.

If you have a replay showing otherwise, I'm sure a lot of us here would like to see it.

I didn't say "get many goblins against drakes". You're right that that is a bad idea; they don't have enough hitpoints, and they're too slow to catch up on their own. Spamming goblins against drakes is as bad as spamming trolls against undead; it's easy to exploit players who think wesnoth is rock-paper-scissors.

I did say to use some goblins to attack them in melee. The goblins are the best hammer, after you've pinned the drakes/horsemen to the anvil. But the goblins are impotent without grunts and trolls to take hits for them.

[Doc Paterson]

I didn't say "get many goblins against drakes".

I did say to use some goblins to attack them in melee. The goblins are the best hammer, after you've pinned the drakes/horsemen to the anvil.

You say "some" now, but your post seems to suggest a situation in which you have a fairly high goblin count.

If you want to say 1-3 goblins on the board, sure, I'll agree with that, but calling them "the best hammer" and all that seems to suggest something more extreme, something that could probably be done better with archers and grunts (I'm talking about Drakes here). After all, half of your Goblins are a mere 5-3 against the Drakes, and that's during their optimal attacking time (as you know, they're 3-3 and 4-3 at other times, and can't really run fast enough to escape death during the day). If you're trying to "pin" a drake with 2 or more L1 units, and have enough goblins in range to do it significant damage, you can expect to be disrupted at other locations.

* * * * *

Replays.

* * * * *

By the way, Grunts are 12G, not 13.

[PingPangQui]

Here some replays for gobo-naga-(troll) combo strategy against drakes on Blitz. (Wesnoth Version: 1.3.3)

[Doc Paterson]

Here some replays for gobo-naga-(troll) combo strategy against drakes on Blitz. (Wesnoth Version: 1.3.3)

Thanks for taking the time to do this- I appreciate it, and I'm sure others here do as well. Here are my thoughts on the matches:

vs. Palloco- Quite a few bad choices from him (letting the burner be trapped, forgetting about the left side entirely, etc.), but the funny thing is that in spite of all of that, he still would have won if he'd had normal luck when attacking your leader that last time. This shows a scenario where palloco would win four out of five games, with the same units being recruited on both sides, and I don't think many people viewing this replay would disagree.

vs. Some New Player- You must know that this only underscores what I said about that strategy working against weaker players. He repeatedly puts his units adjacent to (or on) water hexes in range of Nagas, and repeatedly puts his fragile saurians on grassland, where they are (surprise) destroyed. Again and again leaves his leveling units in places where you have statistical kills on them. Walks his augurs right onto grassland to inflict a few meager hits on a troll (surprise, augur dies). Attacks continuously with no consideration for TOD whatsoever. You could have won this match with 25 gold.

vs. Soliton- Goblin/Naga/Trolls get abused. If you'd have used any grunts or archers, things might have been a little more difficult for him. What he says at the end is very true, and I'll repeat it for those who didn't see the replay- For a goblin-heavy strategy to work, there has to be a very long buildup period (fill in hexes to make ZOC slightly less significant, huge economic/upkeep advantage)- something that cannot work against any good Drake player that is even mildly aggressive. The best example of this was Pietro vs. X (was it Kalis?) in Round One of TOC2. Though the goblin-heavy strategy still didn't work, it was an interesting game.

[Rhuvaen]

The one matchup where I find goblins to be most useful - not especially useful, but more so than in other matchups - is versus loyalists. They can use full TOD advantage, face an enemy that is potentially just as immobile as they are, and cavalry and horsemen - those units who might turn up surprisingly close to your home in just a few turns - are all weak to pierce (as is the spearman, btw, whose firststrike is negated by the goblin's).

EDIT: whether massing goblins is a good idea is probably always dictated by the map's economy and size, though.... the bigger and at the same time poorer the map, the better goblins are, I guess.

[Lorbi]

at very very tiny map they are also have their uses
nearly no villages => they take no upkeep
not much space to move => two units without ZOC are often of more use to block ways then one that has ( or to shield leader )

have a replay showing that but no idea how to upload here ...

[DakaSha]

i can believe this discussion was turned into a "i have the biggest wesnoth schlong" battle