Balancing: Dwarvish Guardsmen
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Doc Paterson
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Ok.
Just played my tournament match where my opponent used a single guardsman to good effect. Let me revise my opinion here hehe.
Just a few general responses
1. I never said guardsmen hp was not ok. My only issue was their upgrades, which get no real HP boost.
However, according to Whitewater, it's already been upgraded (I was using the wesnoth unit description stats). This mean point 1 no longer applies.
2. I still think Stalwarts are debatably the worst level 2 unit. F8Binds mentioned that they were like javelineers, but they only attack once at level 2, rather than twice. I still believe Stalwarts need a bit more ranged attack.
3. Guardsman are really good in certain scenarios. Giving them a 5-2 ranged attack really would be too powerful (aka. point 2 no longer applies either).
I just really dislike the fact it's a singleshot for 5 damage. Too much chance of just plain missing. But it's balanced. Can be very nasty when it does hit.
New Revised Suggestion: Could we give stalwarts a 7-2 from 8-1? Just some reason to consider upgrading a stalwart rather than trying to avoid giving guardsmen XP at all cost.
Just played my tournament match where my opponent used a single guardsman to good effect. Let me revise my opinion here hehe.
Just a few general responses
1. I never said guardsmen hp was not ok. My only issue was their upgrades, which get no real HP boost.
However, according to Whitewater, it's already been upgraded (I was using the wesnoth unit description stats). This mean point 1 no longer applies.
2. I still think Stalwarts are debatably the worst level 2 unit. F8Binds mentioned that they were like javelineers, but they only attack once at level 2, rather than twice. I still believe Stalwarts need a bit more ranged attack.
3. Guardsman are really good in certain scenarios. Giving them a 5-2 ranged attack really would be too powerful (aka. point 2 no longer applies either).
I just really dislike the fact it's a singleshot for 5 damage. Too much chance of just plain missing. But it's balanced. Can be very nasty when it does hit.
New Revised Suggestion: Could we give stalwarts a 7-2 from 8-1? Just some reason to consider upgrading a stalwart rather than trying to avoid giving guardsmen XP at all cost.
Last edited by Kalis on February 19th, 2007, 1:36 am, edited 4 times in total.
What? Why elves? Elves have 2 counters to the guard, mage and wose.F8 Binds... wrote:Well, let's think with me here- This unit is almost impossible to destroy without the enemy bringing out the heavy artillery- mages and archers. The enemy sure will kill the unit if he gangs up upon it, but he has to expose his units, and that means (especially with elves) that they are easy kills the next turn.
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F8 Binds...
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elves tend to be more frail on open ground. (less hp) once exposed, this is more easily exploitable. the wose has terrible defense, and you can use your fighters + thieves to surround him and finish him off. the mage is weak for obvious reasons. (also low hp)
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Kalis, do you even bother to read other people's responses? Particularly where it was pointed out there is a change for the Stalwart in trunk already?
And Zookeeper wonders why MP devs feel the need for one sentence answers. I actually might take people's opinions seriously if they did a modicum of research on a subject before coming on here and giving their "expert opinions."
And Zookeeper wonders why MP devs feel the need for one sentence answers. I actually might take people's opinions seriously if they did a modicum of research on a subject before coming on here and giving their "expert opinions."
Noy wrote:Kalis, do you even bother to read other people's responses? Particularly where it was pointed out there is a change for the Stalwart in trunk already?
You might perhaps ask yourself your own question.Kalis wrote:I never said guardsmen hp was not ok. My only issue was their upgrades, which get no real HP boost. However, according to Whitewater, it's already been upgraded (I was using the wesnoth unit description stats). This mean point 1 no longer applies.
Zookeeper is not the only one who wonders. It might be helpful if you explained *how* one might do research into changes which have not yet been made public. I would be fascinated if you could provide any evidence that you'd ever taken anyone's opinion seriously.Noy wrote:And Zookeeper wonders why MP devs feel the need for one sentence answers. I actually might take people's opinions seriously if they did a modicum of research on a subject before coming on here and giving their "expert opinions."
This is an open source project nearly everything is public. Maybe it's more about how much effort you put in to get involved?Truper wrote: Zookeeper is not the only one who wonders. It might be helpful if you explained *how* one might do research into changes which have not yet been made public.
One simple thing to check for example is the changelog
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Eleazar
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Also we have a browse-able unit tree here:Soliton wrote:This is an open source project nearly everything is public. Maybe it's more about how much effort you put in to get involved?Truper wrote: Zookeeper is not the only one who wonders. It might be helpful if you explained *how* one might do research into changes which have not yet been made public.
One simple thing to check for example is the changelog
http://zapicm.freeshell.org/
If you had actually asked how to find info on our secret (and evil) plans, you would have quickly been pointed to these and other sources.
Feel free to PM me if you start a new terrain oriented thread. It's easy for me to miss them among all the other art threads.
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Attempting Lucidity
I must confess that one-line answers are sometimes very frustrating. Especially when we're often told (and i believe this is true) that balancing is a very difficult task. It seems contradictory to tell people "trust us when it comes to balancing, because we know better than you do", and then "figure out by yourselves why we did this change, or why this situation is already balanced".
Now, i understand that devs might not have the time to take everyone by the hand and teach them how to play and how to understand game balance from scratch. But you must admit that the help for the game is quite scarce, or rather, quite outdated.
One last thing: i understand it's frustrating to have to read "balancing threads" from people who bviously know much much less than you what Wesnoth is about, but some answers are seriously borderline offending and/or disrespectful. I don't think this is necessary. Or rather, i don't think this is necessary when the poster put a bit of work in his argumentation, however wrong it might be. I understand it when it's "OMFG the Burner is so underpowered it should have 12-6 magical instead !!!11!1!!1".
Now, i understand that devs might not have the time to take everyone by the hand and teach them how to play and how to understand game balance from scratch. But you must admit that the help for the game is quite scarce, or rather, quite outdated.
One last thing: i understand it's frustrating to have to read "balancing threads" from people who bviously know much much less than you what Wesnoth is about, but some answers are seriously borderline offending and/or disrespectful. I don't think this is necessary. Or rather, i don't think this is necessary when the poster put a bit of work in his argumentation, however wrong it might be. I understand it when it's "OMFG the Burner is so underpowered it should have 12-6 magical instead !!!11!1!!1".
Hard work may pay off in the long run, but laziness always pays off right away.
Eleazar (and Noy):
I am using that tool.
ahhhh!! I was looking at "Stable (1.2.1)" branch, rather than "Trunk (Updated 13 Feb)".
So that's why I kept drawing the wrong stats from it!
Just a small complaint, but calling the revisions "Trunk" is very confusing. I suppose it's some sort of computer developmental term, but I had no idea at all what it was.
Noy, I did do my research. That's why I would carefully post all unit stats before I wrote any post! However, I was looking at the wrong branch for my stats, which was why my research was incorrect.
Stalwart suggestion (expanded):
Current stats: 54hp, 4MP, steadfast, 7-3 / 8-1.
Resistances same as guardsman:
20% vs impact/pierce/blade/holy
10% vs cold/fire
Suggested stats: 54hp, 4mp, steadfast, 7-3 / 7-2.
Even with that HP change (which Whitewater revealed to me), I continued to suggest that his ranged attack gets changed to 7-2 rather than 8-1. His melee attack is 7-3, which is the same as a dwarvish fighter. However, 8-1 is not an attack people would use. Hence the suggestion of 7-2.
This is a tier 2 unit. From what I've seen, all tier2s have:
1. Overwhelming melee attack
2. Overwhelming ranged attack
3. Balanced attack (but weaker at both than solo-focus units).
I believe the Stalwart falls under category 3.
For purposes of comparison, I bring up the javelineer:
48hp, 5MP, 8-3 firststrike / 11-2.
Resistance of 20 holy, 40 pierce.
Far less survival, but far better attacks. Specifically, his ranged attack of 11-2 attack which is very respectable, unlike an 8-1. 7-2 would be quite a drop compared to 11-2, but it would be respectable as well.
For secondary comparison, I bring up the elvish rider:
46hp, 10MP, 7-3 blade / 9-2 ranged
Resistances 20 holy, -20 pierce.
Again, far less survival. But 10MP lets it outrun anything that could potentially hurt it. Again a double shot ranged attack at 9.
Overall conclusion:
The Guardsman is really tough, but that 4 movement speed really means it's incredibly slow.
At level 1: only capability is a unit to hold the line. Completely lacking attack capability
At level 2: decent melee attack (the same as level1 dwarvish fighter), revise to decent range attack (7-2 would still be a below average attack. But it's better than 8-1)
At level 3: continues to have decent melee and ranged attack. Not that you would ever see one in MP. But it has 9-3 / 11-2.
The current issue, after the initial feedback, is that despite HP boost and decent melee attack, the fact it's ranged attack is 8-1 is horrible. In fact, the Stalwart, even with the HP boost, is weak enough that I can't imagine anyone wanting to level one over feeding XP to a fighter for a steelclad.
Note: In hindsight, I have to admit that my initial suggestions were completely overpowering. My only excuse is I've never seen any effective use of guardsman (until yesterday). The guardsman himself is fine. However, I still believe the Stalwart needs some help.
I am using that tool.
ahhhh!! I was looking at "Stable (1.2.1)" branch, rather than "Trunk (Updated 13 Feb)".
So that's why I kept drawing the wrong stats from it!
Just a small complaint, but calling the revisions "Trunk" is very confusing. I suppose it's some sort of computer developmental term, but I had no idea at all what it was.
Noy, I did do my research. That's why I would carefully post all unit stats before I wrote any post! However, I was looking at the wrong branch for my stats, which was why my research was incorrect.
Stalwart suggestion (expanded):
Current stats: 54hp, 4MP, steadfast, 7-3 / 8-1.
Resistances same as guardsman:
20% vs impact/pierce/blade/holy
10% vs cold/fire
Suggested stats: 54hp, 4mp, steadfast, 7-3 / 7-2.
Even with that HP change (which Whitewater revealed to me), I continued to suggest that his ranged attack gets changed to 7-2 rather than 8-1. His melee attack is 7-3, which is the same as a dwarvish fighter. However, 8-1 is not an attack people would use. Hence the suggestion of 7-2.
This is a tier 2 unit. From what I've seen, all tier2s have:
1. Overwhelming melee attack
2. Overwhelming ranged attack
3. Balanced attack (but weaker at both than solo-focus units).
I believe the Stalwart falls under category 3.
For purposes of comparison, I bring up the javelineer:
48hp, 5MP, 8-3 firststrike / 11-2.
Resistance of 20 holy, 40 pierce.
Far less survival, but far better attacks. Specifically, his ranged attack of 11-2 attack which is very respectable, unlike an 8-1. 7-2 would be quite a drop compared to 11-2, but it would be respectable as well.
For secondary comparison, I bring up the elvish rider:
46hp, 10MP, 7-3 blade / 9-2 ranged
Resistances 20 holy, -20 pierce.
Again, far less survival. But 10MP lets it outrun anything that could potentially hurt it. Again a double shot ranged attack at 9.
Overall conclusion:
The Guardsman is really tough, but that 4 movement speed really means it's incredibly slow.
At level 1: only capability is a unit to hold the line. Completely lacking attack capability
At level 2: decent melee attack (the same as level1 dwarvish fighter), revise to decent range attack (7-2 would still be a below average attack. But it's better than 8-1)
At level 3: continues to have decent melee and ranged attack. Not that you would ever see one in MP. But it has 9-3 / 11-2.
The current issue, after the initial feedback, is that despite HP boost and decent melee attack, the fact it's ranged attack is 8-1 is horrible. In fact, the Stalwart, even with the HP boost, is weak enough that I can't imagine anyone wanting to level one over feeding XP to a fighter for a steelclad.
Note: In hindsight, I have to admit that my initial suggestions were completely overpowering. My only excuse is I've never seen any effective use of guardsman (until yesterday). The guardsman himself is fine. However, I still believe the Stalwart needs some help.
The Guardsman has +resistance to ALL damage types. The Scout/Rider has -Pierce, and the Javelineer has 0 on Blade, Impact, Fire, Cold, and has no Steadfast.
Steadfast makes this guy a *ridiculous* defender, for sure. If you need to simply hold an area from an opponent, a Guardsman is what you wil use, not a Fighter or Thunderer. His drawback then comes in the attack phase.
The Guardsman I think is great as it is. It is a supplemental unit, not a meat unit. It's upgrades, before trunk, I also thought were underpowered. So little upgrade, it was essentially a long lasting level 1 (with 2x upkeep). With hp upgrades, the L2 and L3 will be more formidable and actually do the job of lasting longer than the Fighters; which the L2 unit previously did not.
The Steelclad has 30% Blade resistance and huge hp - making him exceptionally hard to kill by conventional melee weaponry. The L2 Guard only has 20% with Steadfast, meaning that he actually will die more quickly if he attacks - especially considering that his defense is sometimes lower than the Steelclad's.
Upgrading the hp is what was needed.
Having said that, the minimal damage of the L2 is a little frustrating. 7-2 ranged, however, I think is going too far. Going from 8-1 to 11-2 is a big jump in effectiveness though. I'd like to see the L2 have a 5-2 ranged instead of its current attack. This would add reliability to the ranged attack, but not add very much to the strength of it.
I haven't played with the new stat upgrades, so that might overpower the unit - I'm not sure. That's just a thought I had about the unit in it's 1.2.1 state and before.
One thing I think people don't realize when proposing chages is that a minor change can make a big difference. Things are quite balanced as they are, and a small tweak on one unit may completely alter the balance of the factions. Example: Elvish Archer price drop from 18 to 17... that's a 5.56% decrease. It makes a huge deal in recruitment options and economics. Changing the ranged attack of the Stalwart from 8-1 to 7-2 would be a 75% increase in damage. How much do you think that might effect the game?
Steadfast makes this guy a *ridiculous* defender, for sure. If you need to simply hold an area from an opponent, a Guardsman is what you wil use, not a Fighter or Thunderer. His drawback then comes in the attack phase.
The Guardsman I think is great as it is. It is a supplemental unit, not a meat unit. It's upgrades, before trunk, I also thought were underpowered. So little upgrade, it was essentially a long lasting level 1 (with 2x upkeep). With hp upgrades, the L2 and L3 will be more formidable and actually do the job of lasting longer than the Fighters; which the L2 unit previously did not.
The Steelclad has 30% Blade resistance and huge hp - making him exceptionally hard to kill by conventional melee weaponry. The L2 Guard only has 20% with Steadfast, meaning that he actually will die more quickly if he attacks - especially considering that his defense is sometimes lower than the Steelclad's.
Upgrading the hp is what was needed.
Having said that, the minimal damage of the L2 is a little frustrating. 7-2 ranged, however, I think is going too far. Going from 8-1 to 11-2 is a big jump in effectiveness though. I'd like to see the L2 have a 5-2 ranged instead of its current attack. This would add reliability to the ranged attack, but not add very much to the strength of it.
I haven't played with the new stat upgrades, so that might overpower the unit - I'm not sure. That's just a thought I had about the unit in it's 1.2.1 state and before.
One thing I think people don't realize when proposing chages is that a minor change can make a big difference. Things are quite balanced as they are, and a small tweak on one unit may completely alter the balance of the factions. Example: Elvish Archer price drop from 18 to 17... that's a 5.56% decrease. It makes a huge deal in recruitment options and economics. Changing the ranged attack of the Stalwart from 8-1 to 7-2 would be a 75% increase in damage. How much do you think that might effect the game?
JW:
I know the Guardsman is a tough as heck guy to kill.
Honestly, I was debating between 6-2 and 7-2, and finally decided on 7-2 because I took the elvish rider (9-2) and the javelineer (11-2) for comparison.
Effect on the game? In all honesty, since this is a tier 2 upgrade, not that much.
I'll just mention that even with it's current trunk stats, I'd try to avoid having the guardsman make the last hit for the kill if at all possible.
My problem with the Stalwart is that most of the time, only 2 units are capable of attacking the single enemy unit per turn. In addition, on most maps, that enemy unit will generally have 60-70% defense.
So I don't think 7-2 would be overpowered. Especially not for a level 2 unit that only has a 7-3 melee attack!
edit:
Just realized something. Specifically, when you have to try to kill it and move onto grass terrain. In that case, you would only have 40% defense.
Taking that into account, JW is right on 5-2 ranged attack at opposed to 8-1.
Stalwart Suggestion Revision: 54hp, 4MP, steadfast, 7-3 / 5-2?
I freely admit I have a tendency to overcompensate when suggesting balance fixes. I tend to try to push it too far to the other side, making the unit overpowered from underpowered.
I know the Guardsman is a tough as heck guy to kill.
Honestly, I was debating between 6-2 and 7-2, and finally decided on 7-2 because I took the elvish rider (9-2) and the javelineer (11-2) for comparison.
Effect on the game? In all honesty, since this is a tier 2 upgrade, not that much.
I'll just mention that even with it's current trunk stats, I'd try to avoid having the guardsman make the last hit for the kill if at all possible.
My problem with the Stalwart is that most of the time, only 2 units are capable of attacking the single enemy unit per turn. In addition, on most maps, that enemy unit will generally have 60-70% defense.
So I don't think 7-2 would be overpowered. Especially not for a level 2 unit that only has a 7-3 melee attack!
edit:
Just realized something. Specifically, when you have to try to kill it and move onto grass terrain. In that case, you would only have 40% defense.
Taking that into account, JW is right on 5-2 ranged attack at opposed to 8-1.
Stalwart Suggestion Revision: 54hp, 4MP, steadfast, 7-3 / 5-2?
I freely admit I have a tendency to overcompensate when suggesting balance fixes. I tend to try to push it too far to the other side, making the unit overpowered from underpowered.